Brimaz
Standard forum
Posted on Feb. 24, 2014, 11:32 p.m. by tman007
Is it just me, or is Brimaz, King of Oreskos a little bit overrated? He's not too well positioned in a a MBD, Orzhov and UW control dominated meta. Against Mono B, he just eats a Hero's Dowfall or something similar, against mono red he eats Mizzium Mortars or just gets outraced, against UW control Jace, Architect of Thought s +1 makes the tokens irrelevant, Detention Sphere hits it, Supreme Verdict deals with it well. Basically, I've noticed that all the top decks have answers to it. He's good, but at least in my opinion, not $30 good.
Or am I just being stupid and overlooking something huge?
I do think it's unfortunate that such an amazing card was introduced in a meta full of Detention Sphere , Hero's Downfall and Thoughtseize . I have to agree that in playtesting for me he was a 3-drop that read "counter target removal spell". I've since removed him from my deck.
That being said, he does have some viability due to his synergy with cards like Spear of Heliod and Ephara, God of the Polis . And in these decks, he can really do some serious work. The problem is making those particular decks strong enough against things like MBD and Esper.
February 24, 2014 11:35 p.m.
Actually, the tokens remain as 1/1s because they are already attacking, and were not assigned to 'attack' as such?but yeah, he seems a little...lackluster in the current meta. After RTR rotates, he'll probably shine.
February 24, 2014 11:39 p.m.
I mean, sure, but previously, the white card that fell into this category was Archangel of Thune . She basically became a 'I tap 5 mana and my opponent discards a kill spell'. Whenever a card reaches that status, you know there's a reason for it. Imagine how much weaker the decks you listed would be if they didn't have reliable answers to threats. White weenies don't really care too much. They are fantastic at playing low-costing, mana-efficient threats on a regular basis to keep up the pressure. These decks know they'll have to eat a few kill spells once the Brave the Elements and the like wear thin and they're sort of fine with it. It's the opportunity cost you incur by choosing his deck archetype.
February 24, 2014 11:40 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #6
Voice of Resurgence gives him a bit of protection from counter, and Brave the Elements is useful too. I'm planning to put two of him in GW Aggro. If he draws all the hate it just gives Fleecemane Lion a bigger chance to become monstrous, and gives Ajani some room too. I don't have the Brimaz's yet, but when I finally finish the deck it will be called Crazy Cat Lady. lol
February 24, 2014 11:45 p.m.
Yeah agreed with SharuumNyan here, i use Brimaz in a GW weenie shell, with the Lion being the main threat, and Ajani behind it.
February 24, 2014 11:51 p.m.
I think the better way to think about it is a card as powerful as Brimaz, King of Oreskos is a bit like a mini-Baneslayer Angel . It's a creature that is so good it makes your opponents removal better, but at the same time it demands that removal right away.
That said, it's no surprise that Brimaz, King of Oreskos has made the most waves coming out of the sideboard of UWx decks to bait-n-switch when the opponent sides most of their removal out. Even if a card like Hero's Downfall stays in, it allows you to tax that finite resource.
February 24, 2014 11:59 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #9
Brimaz is still ridiculously powerful. The fact that he demands an immediate response speaks to his strength.
You don't see people calling Dark Confidant bad because it's probably just going to eat a Lightning Bolt . The upside some cards create are simply worth the knowledge that it's going to die as soon as your opponent can possibly kill it.
February 25, 2014 12:02 a.m.
For sake of mentioning, I do agree with what the majority of people here have said. In the end, MTG is a game of maximizing resources. If a card is so good that it demands a 1-for-1 almost immediately, it's worth playing. Especially in such a creature-heavy deck like G/W aggro.
I think what I was trying to say was that I'm disappointed that I don't ever get to actually play with him, simply due to the fact that he demands such respect. I want my Brimaz to be throwing cats everywhere...
February 25, 2014 12:15 a.m.
Enlightened_Jedi says... #11
Brimaz is a great card but I actually prefer Fiendslayer Paladin as a 2 of in my SB in my UW.
Dude wrecks mono black and burn decks and kill's muta's and pretty much holds his own in Aggro.
Brimaz does this as well. Just Paladin doesn't eat red or black kill spells like candy.
Kitty's < Jedi's
February 25, 2014 12:18 a.m.
Enlightened_Jedi: For your sake and mine I hope they one day print a Leonin Jedi.
But seriously, though, I prefer running Fiendslayer Paladin in my Bant midrange deck as well to bring in against aggro for the same exact reasons. The protection is so key right now.
February 25, 2014 12:21 a.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #13
It's worth pointing out that he survives every MBD mainboard kill spell other than Hero's Downfall now that Bile Blight has taken the slots that were previously up in the air and occasionally filled with Doom Blade or Ultimate Price . Mono Red usually runs only 2 Mizzium Mortars mainboard; he survives almost every other burn as well as Anger of the Gods . Also, while it's true that Supreme Verdict can deal with him and the tokens in one fell swoop, what's important is that any 3-drop that can force a Verdict by itself is not to be taken lightly.
I agree that it's not a $30 card, but that's more a factor of the fact that decks he fits into are not top archetypes (besides sideboard duty in UW). It's still an extremely powerful card.
February 25, 2014 1:49 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #14
Most cards have answers, the fact that you feel you need to answer him is where his playability comes from.
Do I think his price will hold up in the clouds where it doth rest, no, it'll probably gently float down as the year doth pass.
February 25, 2014 7:01 a.m.
It's also worth noting that he's finding a place in modern as well. Which is significant.
February 25, 2014 7:22 a.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #16
I actually had him played against me by a Legacy Death and Taxes pilot. He took the place of Mirran Crusader , and did some serious work. His synergy with Karakas was really gross.
February 25, 2014 9:39 a.m.
The cat king is great in every single way. Right now he is at his best in a Esper midrange deck. And if you look forward to the post rotation then a lot of the wraths and cmc2 removal that hits him will be gone and whats left is the cmc3-5 removals. Then he will shine even brighter as he is in W and that will likely be one of the stronger colors as the set rotates.
February 25, 2014 2:10 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #18
Honestly his biggest impact on standard has been giving Domri Rade
a new fur coat, getting curb stomped courtesy of Hero's Downfall
, and getting caged and put in the zoo by U/W. He dies to everything and makes no impact on the board without participating in combat. Even Bile Blight
punks him with a blocking Mutavault
or Pack Rat
. He rarely finds favorable boards to attack into and pretty much just eats removal like others have said. Horrible meta for him right now. When RtR rotates he might get to have a period of dominance.
Modern & Legacy affect his price but he is not currently a powerhouse in standard. You are not stupid and have evaluated correctly in that he is not worth $30 to a standard player.
February 25, 2014 3:54 p.m.
@Rasta_Viking29 Aside from the Hero's Downfall which is a heck of a card to be wasting on the cat king, all the other methods for removing him that you listed involved two cards; Mutavault or Pack Rat AND a Bile Blight . Or Domri Rade + his fight mechanic with a Polukranos or some such creature whose P/T is greater than 4.
In other words, unless your wasting the best removal spell in standard (Hero's Downfall ) to shoot down a cat, your gonna need to develop either card advantage or board state advantage to answer a Brimaz, King of Oreskos with a minimum of 2 cards. Sure there's simpler cards like Doom Blade but that would require my opponent to devote slots in his 75 for Doom Blade which just isn't always going to be the case. Running black in general is a major prerequisite to even boarding Doom Blade , so in a match-up, if my opponent doesn't even run black, %75 of the things listed with which to answer Brimaz, I would have to assume they're going to be having fits trying to deal with him.
There's also obviously poorly positioned match-ups. Mono-Blue devotion for instance is a terrible match-up to have the cat king Brimaz, as he can simply be traded for with a Frostburn Weird .
February 26, 2014 1:28 p.m.
Also the fact that you're forcing a response to a T3 play. That's crazy if you have explosive T4s and 5s lined up as well.
If everything in your deck demands an immediate response then you have a threatening deck.
February 26, 2014 1:36 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #21
Bile Blight + blocking with a Pack Rat is not a 2 for 1 as the vermin survives and seems like a typical turn for MBD without any deviation from their game-plan. Ultimate Price should be mainboard over Bile Blight now that G/R is top dog and 1 for 1's anyway. Doom Blade will still be a meta call but 1 for 1's. Devour Flesh has been all but phased out of the meta except as an answer to BBoV.
G/R Monsters has no problem neutering, running over, or just killing Brimaz. T2 Domri Rade followed by Polukranos, World Eater and -2 fight mechanic is also not a 2 for 1 and is a good play. Courser of Kruphix can block him as well leaving Elvish Mystic and Sylvan Caryatid as the only creatures unable to deal with a Brimaz. Mizzium Mortars is a given. As a competitive player of this deck I can attest Brimaz, King of Oreskos makes me chuckle when the opponent casts him.
MUD is actually probably his best matchup against tier 1 decks in my opinion and even then he is too slow to really stall their aggro plan and get flown over.
So far the tournament results validate my point. U/W & Esper Midrange look to be utilizing him in a way that he makes positive a impact. He needs to be in a deck that plays 1-2cmc creatures and can pressure early so he can clog the game up or eat removal paving the way for true finishers Blood Baron of Vizkopa and Obzedat, Ghost Council . If he must be answered turn 3 and will be followed up with other threats that need to be answered in turn, he is great. Currently this is the closest situation we have to that.
I plan on getting a playset before JOU is released. I don't hate him and would like to see him do well. He is just poorly positioned right now and not worth his price tag.
February 26, 2014 4:39 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #22
Nobody said you had to 2-for-1 yourself to kill him. They simply said that killing him requires the interaction of two cards.
But yes, the current meta is pretty bad for him in Standard. He simply gets outclassed by the quality of blockers and/or removal available in most current decks.
Doesn't mean he isn't still the king of all cats.
February 26, 2014 6:27 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #23
"In other words, unless your wasting the best removal spell in standard (Hero's Downfall ) to shoot down a cat, your gonna need to develop either card advantage or board state advantage to answer a Brimaz, King of Oreskos with a minimum of 2 cards."
I interpret the need for card advantage in order to answer as a 2 for 1 or else why would you need it? My point is Brimaz, King of Oreskos can be answered by one card without any card advantage or deviation from the top decks traditional line of plays. Even the examples of using things you have already committed to the board like a Mutavault or Domri Rade in conjunction with another spell or creature is a win for the deck doing so as in the end it is still no worse than a 1 for 1.
February 26, 2014 7 p.m.
I really feel like the main selling point is the fact that he is a 3-drop that demands attention. It's fantastic because it means that a W deck can play a big threat T3, a big threat T4, and T5.
You have to remember that each killspell is a resource, and planeswalker loyalty is a resource also. If you're using a lot of that on the T3 play, you're weakening your position in the late game, at which point its probable that an even bigger threat comes out. What I mean by this is that you'll have less of this resource to use next turn, or the next.
Brimaz is a fantastic bait card. Every resource wasted on answering him is one fewer card that can deal with the Advent of the Wurm or the Archangel of Thune or whatever else it may be that will follow him next turn.
That's why I value him. Because I run a creature heavy deck that applies constant pressure.
February 26, 2014 7:20 p.m.
I should clarify that the point of the resources argument is that any player running a creature heavy deck will argue that they have more big creature threats in their deck than you have Doom Blade in yours, or Mizzium Mortars in another.
February 26, 2014 7:21 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #26
I agree with everything you just said ChiefBell.
I just feel like many are using him incorrectly and have unreasonable expectations. He is not an auto include in every deck running white. I think Domri Rade is a more powerful card currently in standard and he dipped below $30
February 26, 2014 8:13 p.m.
It depends on what he does in modern. As it stands he's good in standard. Not amazing; just very solid. IF he's played in other formats then the demand will get ridiculous and drive the price up. Probably not because he's amazing at any one thing or in any one format but just because he's good at a lot of different things.
February 26, 2014 8:18 p.m.
@Rasta_Viking29 it is a 2 card answer because you need to have both cards to pull it off, hence a 2 card answer.
February 26, 2014 10:10 p.m.
If you have one of the two cards left over, like in the case with a domri fight, or a bile blight+mutavault or packrat, you still needed both cards at the same time to make them answer Brimaz.
If you don't have the 2 cards you need to do that, you need card advantage to get there.
in any sitch, your either blowing the few answer's you have on their 3-drop, or your scrambling to find that answer for their 3-drop, as ChiefBell has been pointing out, windmill slamming Brimaz on T3 demands an answer, and forces your opponent to stop what they were going to do and now focus on Brimaz. Unless their plan was to trump a Brimaz the whole time..
February 26, 2014 10:16 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #31
The fact that he's a good target for counter and removal also makes him work well with Voice of Resurgence . The more little dudes you have, the harder the decision to let him die or let him stay. The only real answer to that situation is Supreme Verdict.
February 26, 2014 10:40 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #32
Behgz you're missing the point.
Ex:
G/R monsters leads Elvish Mystic into a turn 2 Domri Rade . Opponent casts Brimaz, King of Oreskos and passes turn. G/R casts Polukranos, World Eater and -2 Domri leaving him at 2 loyalty to kill Brimaz. G/R is very far ahead at this point having a Domri and Polukranos and negating the opponents last play. This is not some special plan for Brimaz.
MBD plays Pack Rat turn 2. Opponent plays Brimaz. MBD plays swamp and passes. Do you even attack? He can pay 3 mana and discard a swamp to kill kitty. He can cast Bile Blight and block to kill kitty. Better not attack... Damn Pack Rat!
These 2 card situations don't hurt either deck, especially since it is unintentional and a byproduct of their optimal gameplan.
February 26, 2014 11:25 p.m.
Yea those are both scenarios that deal with an early Brimaz quite handily, moreso, decks like MUD run Frostburn Weird which can flat out trade with a Brimaz, and we all know U/W can wipe away any creature based threat.
Brimaz really is ill-suited to carve out a foothold in the current meta, in the mainboard at least..
February 26, 2014 11:41 p.m.
I also run the Cat King in G/W aggro, and with cards like: Loxodon Smiter baiting out the kill spells, Voice of Resurgence offering a little protection, and Fleecemane Lion to follow up and become a bigger threat as well as making them regret some removal, he can usually have a turn or two of pressure on your opponents and is incredibly beneficial. With Spear of Heliod or even a single Ajani, Caller of the Pride +1/+1 counter he's out of range of all Red burn. Yes, Detention Sphere and Supreme Verdict are a problem, but many creatures have to bite that bullet. Thoughtseize is another one of those cards... You just gotta live with it. In terms of Brimaz, King of Oreskos however, he's got a decent body and survives a lot, you have an attacker and blocker due to Vigilance, and have a small army to back you up!
February 26, 2014 11:58 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #35
SharuumNyan makes a good point. G/W has some synergy with those two. I've seen posted that he also increases the chance of Fleecemane Lion going monstrous which is ideal in the long run. Brimaz is also better off, like his friend in the wizard of oz, when he recieves Unflinching Courage . I like W/G Midrange to potentally be serious player when JOU is released.
February 27, 2014 12:07 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #36
I've been putting King Leonidas to use in a U/W bestow shell. His interaction with Eidolon of Countless Battles is really quite bizarre. (BestoWeenies for reference.)
He does require some building around in some cases but for the most part he is just a good threat.
February 27, 2014 9:07 a.m.
Kitty King has shown up in a few diverse deck lists, but currently seems strongest in G/W aggro. I'm considering him in a mostly white Boros build that capitalizes on token generation Frontline Medic and Boros Charm to the rescue! We'll see.
And he should shine once RTR rotates out.
February 27, 2014 3:37 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #38
Apoptosis can you share that deck list when it's done? It sounds like fun!
February 27, 2014 4:04 p.m.
Absolutely SharuumNyan! In the meantime if you want to check out a fun little deck I'm experimenting with check out Houston, we're going initiate a controlled burn
tman007 says... #2
Hero's Downfall , sorry about that.
February 24, 2014 11:32 p.m.