Prognostic Sphinx vs Silumgar, the Drifting Death
Standard forum
Posted on Jan. 7, 2015, 1:33 p.m. by omnipotato
Prognostic Sphinx and Silumgar, the Drifting Death are pretty similar. Both are 3-power flyers which can gain hexproof. Which is better to use in a control deck in Standard (control deck meaning that this will be the only creature you have out most of the time)?
Here's my analysis of the two cards -
Prognostic Sphinx pros:
Costs less mana
Lets you scry and find answers to threats
Requires only one color to play
Silumgar, the Drifting Death pros:
Doesn't require you to discard to give it hexproof
Higher toughness
Kills opponent's creatures
Works better with Crux of Fate, if that's being included in your deck
The "discard to give hexproof ability" on the Sphinx is almost as good as hexproof though, since most players don't want to trade their Hero's Downfall for the worst card in your hand.
My favorite thing about Silumgar is he basically invalidates Elspeth, Sun's Champion because he kills her tokens every turn and can't be killed by the minus ability.
What do you guys think? Silumgar or Sphinx for a U/B or Esper Control deck?
Rasta_Viking29 says... #2
Rhadamanthus & ChiefBell Hero's Downfall is a dead card against Silmgar whereas it is still live against the sphinx and require resources to be dealt with. Silumgar creates virtual card advantage against removal heavy decks. I currently attack through Sphinx all day by just pointing a Lightning Strike at it, it's that simple.
scry 3 has rarely been relevant in any games I've played, it happens too late in the game. Setting up your 7th draw is pointless when you fall behind on tempo and board position to do it.
Hordeling Outburst, Goblin Rabblemaster, Hornet Queen, and Elspeth, Sun's Champion are all big players in Standard. Giving your opponents creatures -1/-1 is very relevant in the meta.
January 9, 2015 11:56 a.m.
Hero's Downfall isn't live against the sphinx. It just reads B2: target player discards a card.
Simulacra doesn't give you virtual card advantage. You don't have access to any more resources than you would have done already, and it doesn't rob resources from the opponent. It's just that the cards they have aren't useful. It doesn't actually mean that you have more stuff than they do. It's not card advantage.
I don't know how you stack through sphinx by threatening a spell that a) it can evade easily and b) that won't kill it anyway. But there you go.
Scry3 has always been massively relevant when I played in a control deck. I don't understand how playing a hexproof creature loses board position. In fact it increases your board position. Loses you tempo as you can't play counterspells but that's assuming yo tap out T5 to play it which is super stupid to do anyway. I agree you can lose tempo if you use him in an unwise manner.
All of those cards you mention all suffer to Drown in Sorrow. A card that costs half the mana of Silumgar, is more useful because it hits more stuff AND doesn't require you to attack to use it. Tempo advantage certainly stands with Drown in Sorrow over Silumgar on that one.
January 9, 2015 12:08 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #5
It is live. I can target your Sphinx and you must expend resources to deal with it. You might gain a slight advantage on mana for a turn.
I don't think you fully understand virtual card advantage. If Hero's Downfall has no valid target it is a dead card. It is equivalent to it not even being in your hand and lost draw in that case.
You either have to tap the Sphinx, take the damage and let the attack through, waste a counterspell, or trade off your Sphinx. Sphinx is a bad blocker.
Yes it increases your board position but it allows your opponent to do the same and their permanents are typically better. U/B doesn't care about it's board presence, only keeping the opponent off the board. This deck lives and dies by Perilous Vault.
Having cards with overlapping effects will only increase consistency. Anyone thinking that Silumgar is going to replace Drown in Sorrow is looney. They'll work great together though.
January 9, 2015 12:32 p.m.
Uh not really. That's assuming that the Hero's Downfall is going to do literally nothing else all game, which is usually not true. It is a resource you have in your hand. If it is literally going to do nothing all game then sure it's dead, but a control deck usually plays a variety of threats and planeswalkers and therefore to refer to it as a dead card because a single threat is currently in place isn't true. It's still a resource they have access to in the game. Whilst not currently useful, that doesn't mean it's not in hand and ready.
Oh ok, I thought you were referring to sphinx on the attack. I understand it might be a bad blocker, and I can see how that works. Although I mean this is dependent on board position and a whole host of other things. Sure there are times when sphinx is a poor blocker. Though having said that, it can still block a turn earlier than Silumgar can, which is probably relevant.
This depends on the turn you play Sphinx. Honestly. Leaving mana open, not leaving mana open. Cards in hand or the lack thereof. If you tap out T5 and play sphinx indiscriminately then of course the opponent could suddenly play out a host of threats, however if you're smart about it this isn't the case. Besides, Silumgar costs 1 more mana! This isn't a downside that's relevant to the conversation, or if it is it goes in sphinxes favour because it costs less and therefore is a smaller tempo hit.
I agree with you, however I view Silumgars -1/-1 as being largely superfluous to needs. I do not think a T7 -1/-1 will be relevant. I, personally, have not seen an aggro deck or tokens deck go to T7 against a control deck and still have significant board presence that needs dealing with. Drown in Sorrow is great because it's a T3 or T5 play depending on mana options and whether you want to leave things open. Silumgar is a T6 or T8 play. I don't think his ability will be useful on those particular turns. I certainly haven't played a game where it would have been.
January 9, 2015 12:41 p.m.
omnipotato says... #7
I feel like Silumgar's ability is a "win by more" ability. Once you bring him down you probably already have board control and 1/1s aren't threats anymore. He is hexproof which is certainly better than "discard a card: give me hexproof and tap me," but the fact that he only has 3 power means he's not a great wincon and doesn't do much else other than stick around and possibly deal 3 damage a turn if you don't need him to block. Using him to take down Elspeth would probably be the best option late-game, but there aren't too many decks playing Elspeth at the moment anyway.
Sphinx's discard ability is better than kyuuri117 is giving it credit for. It's true that your opponent will have a bunch of dead removal playing against a control deck and want to waste it all on Sphinx but consider this: 1. They can't keep making you discard. So it's not 
: discard a card. It's : discard a card. Activate this once per turn. 2. You as a control player should know if it's worth Sphinx dying, or discarding an important card. A lot of times once I've gotten a couple of scrys out of the sphinx and have great cards in my hand, I just let him die because I have better threats to play anyway.
January 9, 2015 1:51 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
@Rasta_Viking29: The reason I brought up my own deck in my earlier post was to use that as the context for my comparison between Sphinx and Silumgar. I have other creatures and planeswalkers, so Sphinx isn't a pure lightning rod for all my opponent's removal in the games I play. Because the conversation in the thread so far was almost strictly about UB control, I should have realized it would have sounded weird to change the topic like that, so sorry for the confusion. My preference between the two cards actually flips if we just want to talk about UB.
In a deck like UB control that plays almost no creatures, the "virtual card advantage" difference between Prognostic Sphinx and Silumgar, the Drifting Death vs. targeted removal is real, and I agree with you on that point. As much as I like Prognostic Sphinx, I might not choose to play him in UB at all, except maybe as a sideboard card against other control decks that will board out some targeted removal in game 2. Silumgar having always-on hexproof and 7 toughness is the hotness for a deck like UB, and a play like "Drown in Sorrow, then attack" or "Bile Blight, then attack" will kill a lot of stuff.
So yeah, I think which one is better than the other is highly dependent on context.
January 9, 2015 1:53 p.m.
omnipotato says... #9
Rhadamanthus I agree, Sphinx is better for a U/W or Esper deck and Silumgar is better for a U/B list. White gives access to better creatures/planeswalkers so they can support Sphinx
January 9, 2015 3:53 p.m.
ChiefBell My point is this: the player using removal on Sphinx has absolutely NOTHING else to use that removal on, unless you already have a walker on the board. And in the late game, it isn't even tempo loss for them. You say that the scry 3 allows for a hand with only good stuff? Then that good stuff is what is going to be discarded to Sphinx. I'd rather keep their dead cards dead then allow them to use what amounts to a free discard spell on us whenever they want. I'm not saying that Sphinx is a bad card. He's not. But he has personally NOT worked out for me in these last few months, to the point I don't even have him in the sideboard.
When your opponent has dead cards, and you have live cards, and they make you discard a live card for one of theirs that would otherwise be worthless, that's card QUALITY disadvantage. I mean, sure, its one card in the graveyard for both of you, but it's still a clear cut disadvantage for you.
omnipotato Eh, as I said, I do like scry 3. A lot. But giving my opponent's dead cards relevance is just backwards in my opinion. Sphinx can die to anything if you let it, otherwise you discard. Simulgar dies to a board wipe or Sac effect, and that's it. It just sticks much harder than Sphinx.
Lastly, one thing which I feel has some major relevance that no one's really picked up on, is that Simulgar allows Bile Blight, which is mainboard as a 3-4, to have great effectiveness late game. Attack into someone with a Butcher or Roc on the board and they don't block? Fine, here's a bile blight. Same with any Courser that you don't want to downfall. That synergy alone is worth running him over Sphinx.
January 9, 2015 4:56 p.m.
omnipotato says... #11
Yeah it comes down to running white or not. If you're just U/B you have more Bile Blight/Drown in Sorrow effects to combo with Silumgar late-game whereas if you have white you're gonna be doing Devouring Light or Utter End
January 9, 2015 5:13 p.m.
Is it? I mean that's a strong but kinda cute interaction. I can see it being effective some of the time, but not game breaking.
January 9, 2015 5:21 p.m.
Loco-Motive says... #13
I know this is being really, REALLY cute here...but an idea was spurred on with someone up there saying attack with Silumgar, the Drifting Death and then use Drown in Sorrow or Bile Blight to get rid of a lot of things....
But the cute idea here is attacking with the dragon and then casting Polymorphist's Jest...because frogs! All the frogs. All for you. ;)
January 9, 2015 5:32 p.m.
omnipotato says... #14
Loco-Motive U/B control with Swan Song, Curse of the Swine, Drown in Sorrow, AEtherspouts, Polymorphist's Jest, Silumgar, the Drifting Death, Bile Blight
Let's make it happen
January 9, 2015 6:32 p.m.
Loco-Motive says... #15
Lol, I would, omnipotato, but I needs mah green so I can continue running my Sultai Villainous Wealth yumminess - Lady of Villainous Wealth. I do think, however, I may add Jest and Silumgar to the deck, main or side, in some combination. :)
January 10, 2015 1:43 a.m.
Loco-Motive says... #16
Great article - http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/ub-control-with-silumgar-the-drifting-death/
ChiefBell says... #1
I don't see why you'd swap a card with a useful ability (scry3) for one with a useless ability (-1/-1).
Anyone playing silumgar as an answer to aggro is so misguided it's unreal. We're talking about an ability that only kills things with 1 toughness, that doesn't trigger until t8. That's not even remotely useful against aggro.
Do you really want to trade drawing the cards you want for permanent hexproof when you already have pseudo hexproof? Probably not. Does discarding a card to grant hexproof present card disadvantage? No because when you activate it it becomes a 1-for-1. Does it matter if the second removal spell gets through? Lol no because with scry 3 you probably have a beautiful hand full of things that you want anyway.
The thing about prog sphinx is that what it does is ensure you have the right cards at the right time, and that's all a control deck needs to do. Using him well is hard but it is possible and when you do he's very good.
Just for reference as to how playable he is - I've tested him in modern. In that format he was pretty bad but still did really good things. The scry 3 is absolutely insane because it allowed me to filter the shit out of my next few draws.
January 9, 2015 11:26 a.m.