Change Creature type in standard?

It depends on how mana efficient the other card is, and how relevant it is, and whether the deck even bothers playing it. There are a lot of factors that influence the banning process.

Too often, people rush to say "zomg that card is op ban ban ban," but they don't think about the other factors.

March 5, 2014 6:40 p.m.

If a card like Conspiracy was in Standard right now, either it or Pack Rat would have to be banned. Right now MBD and UW Control are played more than anything else, because MBD is OP and UW Control has the most answers for it. If every creature was a rat, those would be the ONLY competitive decks in Standard. The format would be officially broken, and one of the two cards would have to be banned in order for people to quit playing Magic. It would be almost like having a Tarmogoyf that could get to an unlimited size and make other 'Goyfs.

March 5, 2014 6:45 p.m.

SharuumNyan says... #13

*to not quit playing

March 5, 2014 6:46 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #14

That's not at all how the situation would be. Conspiracy is a 5-drop, as is Xenograft , the most recent counterpart. It's impractical to play a 5-drop that isn't even relevant without one of four single cards, and, on top of that, isn't even relevant until late in the game.

March 5, 2014 6:49 p.m.

SharuumNyan says... #15

Doubt you play much Standard. In a MBD / UW Control match, turn 5 is considered early game. And even though Pack Rat is a four-of in a 60 card deck, it's the primary win-con in the entire format right now.

March 5, 2014 6:52 p.m.

ericmackrodt says... #16

Thank you people for the answers! They were really helpful!!

March 5, 2014 7:51 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #17

I don't, but you have to justify banning a weaker Coat of Arms . And justify beyond simply arguing "it's op."

March 5, 2014 8:20 p.m.

ChiefBell says... #18

A card is considered format warping when every deck either includes that card or is build around stopping that card. Whilst this appears to be the case with Pack Rat , the emergence of RG and RG monsters refutes this because that's a deck that's certainly not built around addressing Pack Rat

March 5, 2014 8:25 p.m.

SharuumNyan says... #19

Yeah ChiefBell, but if Pack Rat were to get a boost from a Conspiracy -like card, MBD would be stupid. Pack Rat is powerful enough already, especially with Mutavault.

And Conspiracy and Coat of Arms aren't even nearly the same card. We're talking about turning Desecration Demon, Gary, and Lifebane Zombie into rats. If you had two rats, two Garys, and a Demon out, each rat would be a 2/2. With Coat of Ams they would be 3/3s. With Conspiracy they would be 5/5s. Big difference.

March 5, 2014 8:32 p.m.

SharuumNyan says... #20

The only reason for banning a card is because it unbalances the format so much that the only playable decks are the deck that plays that card, and the deck that counters it. We're very close to that already. GR Monsters is competitive, but the vast majority of tournaments are still being won by either MBD of UW Control. A single card that adds power to MBD will be enough to ruin the format. That's a fact.

And if Jace was banned for some reason other than being just OP, please fill me in.

March 5, 2014 8:40 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #21

The analogy assumed you were already counting the other creatures as Rats, since that's the core of the argument. Picking apart the comparison does nothing to further justify your claim that a Conspiracy effect would be banworthy. You need to actually demonstrate that the change would make MBD format-breaking.

March 5, 2014 8:41 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #22

Jace was banned because the meta was Cawblade, and that was toxic. Cawblade was the top deck of every event. Beyond that, every blue deck ran (or wanted to run) JTMS. Every nonblue deck had to answer it.

March 5, 2014 8:42 p.m.

SharuumNyan says... #23

How can I demonstrate that the card would be ban worthy any more than I already have? I thought I was pretty clear.

MBD is the top deck in the format
A single card, like Conspiracy, would make the deck more powerful than it already is
Right now almost everyone else is playing UW Control to just be competitive against MBD. IF MBD were more powerful, there would be nothing but MBD and UW Control making the top 8.

If you think a format can be healthy with only two competitive decks, fine. But almost everyone else would disagree with you. It's exactly the same as the Caw Blade situation. People weren't wanting to play anymore because of that deck. The same thing is happening now. More and more people at my LGS are playing Modern, and less are playing Standard, because Standard is boring and not diversified enough to be fun right now. A couple of weeks ago Standard didn't fire for the first time ever.

Caw Blade was a strong deck, and banning Jace solved that. Just like how banning a Conspiracy would prevent MBD from going over the same power cliff.

March 5, 2014 8:50 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #24

You need to demonstrate several things.

The card is playable in MBD. And I don't mean "I can put this card in the deck and it will still be MBD." I mean "This card is an auto-include in MBD." Why would it be so powerful? What factors would influence its playability?
The card would make MBD the only viable deck. This you also have to prove; you can't skate by on the argument that "any card that could be in MBD automatically makes MBD so much better."

If you want to have a discussion about something as technical as a ban list, you need to defend your point with an actual argument - something beyond "this is good so it must be banworthy." Of course, that's a simplification of the situation, but you haven't really given substantial evidence to support your claim.

March 5, 2014 9:02 p.m.

ChiefBell says... #25

I think it's useless to try and think about what might happen. We're arguing about prediction - at the end of the day it's all completely irrelevant. The fact of the meta is that as of right now, the meta is a little more diverse than MBD and decks that counter MBD. IF a format were just one deck or one deck and a deck that countered it - then it would require addressing. However, that's not the case now, and Conspiracy isn't in standard.

Shall we try and avoid an argument about an imagined situation?

March 5, 2014 9:04 p.m.

ChiefBell says... #26

'The fact of the meta' - best typo ever.

March 5, 2014 9:04 p.m.

SharuumNyan says... #27

It's hard to prove a point to someone who doesn't play the format anyway. Unless you've played MBD or played against it, you can't totally understand. Standard and EDH are different worlds.

ChiefBell - it's very close to being a reality now though. MBD wins almost every big event.

March 5, 2014 9:33 p.m.

ChiefBell says... #28

Don't say things like that. I know it sometimes seems that way but a quick search on mtgtop8 tells you that it's just not true.

March 5, 2014 9:35 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #29

So the discussion isn't worth having? Sorry, but all you've done thus far is say this is true because I think it is, and you wouldn't understand anyway. Don't begin a debate with a perspective you aren't willing to defend or explain.

March 5, 2014 10:17 p.m.

SharuumNyan says... #30

So you want to keep arguing? Really?

From my perspective, my point has been made already. You disagree, and that's fine. I've compared it to the Caw Blade situation, which you said was a ban-worthy situation. If you don't get my point, there's not a way I can explain it to convince you otherwise. It's not worth arguing over.

Right now mtgtop8 lists MBD as taking 23% of all top 8 slots. They also list Caw Blade as taking 23% of slots during the Scars season. Jace and Stoneforge Mystic weren't banned until near the end of the season, so they're pretty much even right now in terms of format domination. Making MBD more powerful would mean making something even worse than Caw Blade. I don't know how that wouldn't justify a ban.

March 6, 2014 10:57 a.m.

JWiley129 says... #31

SharuumNyan - I also disagree that Conspiracy or a Conspiracy -like effect would make MBD better. Remember that you're paying 3 mana and a card to make another Pack Rat , and those copies get better with other rats. Assuming that Conspiracy was legal you put a 5 mana investment into making all your creatures rats, then you're casting cards like Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Desecration Demon for more than 3 mana to buff 1 or 2 Pack Rat s. That isn't mana-efficient. Pack Rat is good BECAUSE it's mana efficient. The only way to make it work would be to have all 1 and 2-drops which then turn buff Pack Rat for a smaller investment.

Also, adding a 5 CMC enchantment to help one creature in the deck won't help it, but hurt it. And while everyone who plays Standard has lost to Pack Rat at some point, I would not say it's "format warping." It happens to be a good card in the best deck of the format. Not one of the best Magic cards ever in the best deck in the format like Jace, the Mind Sculptor .

March 6, 2014 11:15 a.m.

Horant says... #32

This might just be me but isn't MBD a pretty tight deck on what cards are included in it? i haven't played MBD but all i play is standard if you remove Cards for Conspiracy what would you remove and how would that effect the deck? Also in my case i can easily remove a simple enchantment from the board especially if it comes down as a 5 drop. i don't see this type of card being a issue in the current standard for MBD.

March 6, 2014 11:24 a.m.

SharuumNyan says... #33

JWiley129 but people are already playing Gary and Desecration Demon, etc. in that deck. You'll still be using them and their abilities, but also giving another boost to Pack Rat. Pack Rat + Mutavault + Gary, who hits you for a ton of devotion and then becomes a rat, is so overpowered.

Gary is a 5 drop too. 5 drops aren't a big deal in this meta, because everything is slower than it was. You would only need Conspiracy out for a single turn to turn a mediocre board state into a winning board state. It wouldn't have to sit there for turn after turn to be effective.

I still don't see how a deck that is dominating a format as much as Caw Blade did isn't seen as the same threat as Caw Blade. The same thing is happening in my area that happened a few years ago, where people are quitting standard because of a single deck. Only now they have Modern to go to as a backup.

March 6, 2014 11:36 a.m.

JWiley129 says... #34

SharuumNyan - You're forgetting the part that Gray Merchant of Asphodel doesn't get the buff from Pack Rat . With Pack Rat , eventually you're paying 3 mana to add 5-6 power to the board. That is what makes Pack Rat +Mutavault ridiculous and mana-efficient.

And to piggyback off of Horant's point, what do you take out? The deck is pretty self-contained, everything in the deck serves a purpose. A Conspiracy -like card won't help the deck, but hurt it.

March 6, 2014 11:50 a.m.

SharuumNyan says... #35

Gary gets a single devotion out of Pack Rat, and another single devotion out of each rat that is created. It also gets two from Underworld Connections , two from itself, plus anything else you have on the board.

There are lots of variations of MBD, and many of those variations are successful. It's not like a single build is dominating. It's the archetype in general that's powerful.

Here's a version of MBD with Conspiracy thrown in. Playtest it against your standard decks, and see how it turns out compared to a regular MDB matchup. I used Bernardo Fonseca's build that won the SC Open in Atlanta a few days ago. His decklist is here, so you can see what I took out for Conspiracy: MBD - Fonseca

MDB + Conspiracy Playtest

Casual* SharuumNyan

SCORE: 0 | 0 COMMENTS | 2 VIEWS

March 6, 2014 11:58 a.m.

Horant says... #36

Ok so you removed a Bile Blight and a Underworld Connections , When i play against MBD i try to not let rats get out of control so what does Conspiracy Do when the rats are dead other then give Devotion for Gary? When or if i lose game one against MBD i usually side in Plummet Destructive Revelry and 2 more Mizzium Mortars Usually able to handle Pack Rat and desy at that point plus i can instant cast Destructive Revelry . I am having a hard time believing that a reprint of Conspiracy would be a problem.

March 6, 2014 12:08 p.m.

JWiley129 says... #37

SharuumNyan - So you cut one of the best cards in the deck, Underworld Connections , and a removal spell for two copies of Conspiracy in the mainboard? For a card you think would push MBD over the top, making it a 2-of isn't a strong endorsement. Cards that break metas have to be 4-ofs at least. Look at DRS or Snapcaster Mage . Those cards are/were 4-ofs in every Modern deck that can/could run them.

The reason that MBD wins is because of its creature quality and heavy removal suite. While Bile Blight is much better in the mirror, there isn't a cut I could justify for the deck. Additionally, the inclusion of Conspiracy isn't about what Gary can do. We already know what he can do. It's about whether the inclusion would benefit Pack Rat enough that you wouldn't just pitch it to Pack Rat in the early game.

March 6, 2014 12:31 p.m.

SharuumNyan says... #38

For the situations you're both describing - that's what the sideboard is for. Switch and change the deck around, and see what happens. Did you playtest against it? A 2-of enchantment can make a big difference to a deck. I play a two-of Spreading Seas in Modern and it's a frequent game winner. There's one in the sideboard too, and maybe two boarded would be better for some matchups.

I'm willing to bet that any deck playing Pack Rat would love to see Conspiracy in the format, but it's not something I can ever prove because it won't happen. I'm fine with us having different points of view. If Epoch hadn't encouraged a continuation of the argument I would already be done with it, because I'm not going to change your minds, and you're not going to change mine.

March 6, 2014 12:42 p.m.

Horant says... #39

Im sorry for continuing the argument, just from what i have learned from the last while of playing magic is there is usually a answer to everything. you make some good points on why it would be a powerful card. im going to playtest against it tonight and see for myself i cant say the outcome would be good as i have never played MBD before.

March 6, 2014 12:55 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #40

If you're comparing MBD and Cawblade purely in terms of format composition, it's no wonder your argument falls short. Pack Rat and Conspiracy are nowhere, nowhere near the power level of JTMS. Furthermore, it isn't really an argument in the sense that we're bickering, which is what your reply seemed to imply. I'm really just trying to understand your position; it currently doesn't appear that your claim is as solid as you believe it to be.

March 6, 2014 10:14 p.m.

SharuumNyan says... #41

Epoch - you're contradicting yourself. You said a card wouldn't be banned simply for being OP, and now you imply that Jace was banned because he was OP. Jace wasn't the only card making Caw Blade dominate the season, which is why Stoneforge Mystic was banned at the same time. Same is true with MBD - more than one card working together is what really pushes that deck over the top. The deck itself is OP, and adding another card that makes it more powerful would create too much unbalance in the format. The top 8 most used cards in the format appear in. If you want to playtset MBD with Conspiracy and find out for yourself if it makes the deck stronger or not, go ahead.

Stoneforge Mystic wasn't particularly OP by herself, but her presence in that deck ruined Standard anyway, so she had to be banned along with Jace. The fact that MBD is dominating Standard as much as Caw Blade did is still creating a lot of negative vibes about the format among players, and only a ban or a fix in a new set has solved that before.

March 7, 2014 7:35 a.m.

Epochalyptik says... #42

@SharuumNyan: In fact, I'm not. As I said, JTMS was dominant in Cawblade and in every other blue deck. If you ran blue, you wanted four copies. This card defined Standard, it was highly flexible, and it was hard to answer in context.

Pack Rat is played in MBD and some Orzhov/Rakdos control decks here and there, but it isn't prevalent enough and powerful enough to warrant being banned. Now, Pack Rat is a powerful card, sure. It's hard to get rid of if you start making copies, but it starts small, and its growth is not on the magnitude that would make it a Standard Tarmogoyf , as you suggested earlier.

Furthermore, you still have not explained why a deck would bother to run an expensive, slow card just to benefit Pack Rat . It doesn't buff your other cads, and it costs a lot to play. You'll deny yourself a lot of other flexibility on the turn you play Conspiracy , and it's a dead card until you have the resources to support it.

As is the case every time I debate with a user, the point is not to discredit you for the sake of discrediting you, nor is it simply to be contrary. I want to have a discussion, but you need to give clearer or better arguments to justify the position you're taking.

March 7, 2014 10:33 a.m.

SharuumNyan says... #43

I think my arguments are clear, but you're not seeing it the way I am. There are quite a few Orzov decks around, at least locally. And just like with the Caw Blade situation, every blue deck ran Jace, but the majority of blue decks were Caw Blade anyway. There are few black decks now, but most of them are running Pack Rat (except for Jund which is basically GR Monsters anyway). 34% of decks are running Pack Rat, compared to 40% of decks that were using Jace during the Scars season. It's pretty close, and I hope they do something to the next set/core set/block to diversify Standard and not wait way too long like last time. Or maybe they don't care anymore, because people who are sick of Standard will just play Modern.

I'm having a hard time explaining it, which is why I made the deck for people to playtest and decide for themselves. I've explained it in the best way I can, and all I can do at this point is repeat myself.

March 7, 2014 11:22 a.m.

Rasta_Viking29 says... #44

Using mtgtop8 can be useful but isn't always the best resource as it pulls data from 2 months at a minimum, right now it portrays 2 different Standard metas. SCG Open deck lists will give you a better idea of the current meta. I play standard at the lowest competitive level (IQ's and such) and Pack Rat strategies have been greatly nerfed to the point Pack Rat is not an auto 4x anymore in all mono-black decks, This level of play's meta is usually a week behind the top level's meta and FNM's seem to be 2-6 weeks behind depending on location.

March 7, 2014 1:16 p.m.

SharuumNyan says... #45

I usually go to SCGs website, but it's been down a lot over the past few days. Probably from all the people signing up for the GP.

I would consider FNM the lowest competitive level, and I see Pack Rat as a four-of there still.