Clans aren't as good?
Standard forum
Posted on April 15, 2015, 2:22 p.m. by SoggyGecko
Has anyone else noticed that the clans are just really weak right now, deckwise? Mardu and Temur are never played, and Abzan, Sultai and Jeskai underperformed in the Pro Tour. What are your guys feelings on this?
Abzan is the only good one in my opinion.
The problem with the clans is that they are very mana intensive. Three colors in one deck usually has a much harder time when it comes to keeping up with everything. I enjoy playing mono-colored decks myself, mainly because the curve is much more simple. May I ask who won the Pro Tour, and what deck he/she used?
TL:DR, it's easier to play less-colored decks.
April 15, 2015 2:31 p.m.
Unless we get more mana fixing in abzan colors after rotation, I actually could see Siege Rhino getting a lot less play. Sylvan Caryatid and the scrylands are quite necessary when playing most Abzan lists right now.
April 15, 2015 2:36 p.m.
SoggyGecko says... #5
Rg aggro won, with U/B control coming in second. Kinda where I am coming from with this. I wonder how the format will be if they put out a new multicolor mana ramp card in Battle.
April 15, 2015 2:58 p.m.
@UpperDeckerTaco If it's all boils down to the mana fixing then what did DTK offer that made the mana fixing better now than it did before??? Because the way I see it, the mana base for 2 color decks is the same now as it was before DTK was released.
April 15, 2015 3:03 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #7
We've had 3 color decks since innistrad. I'm quite positive they are trying to bring us back to 2 colors over time
In other words i believe this is intentional
April 15, 2015 3:08 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #8
abenz419 Yes the mana is exactly the same, but from the cards brought out in DTK that allowed us to play 2 color decks without sacrificing power level, is huge. And the mana has always been good for 2 color decks from set to set. Maybe "Mana Fixing" wasn't the exact correct term, but more so, the "Mana Base" for 2 color decks has always been strong even with RTR 'Pre-Rotation'.
April 15, 2015 4:03 p.m.
KTK/FRF had a lot of three color decks because the mana was slow and the creatures allowed you to create a board presence and steamroll over two color decks in the late game. Remember how everyone was complaining about midrange dominating the format?
Well, in DTK, Control got some more finishers, another board wipe, and realized that U/B was pulling the cart, so they could simplify their mana. Elspeth just wasn't the MVP she had been. This pushed midrange back and then aggro was able to eat up more metagame space. So midrange had to decide whether or not they were getting enough bang out of 3-colors because they usually were not,except for Abzan. They could not, for the most part, try to justify three colors when aggro was actually a player at the table.
Is that a pretty fair analysis?
April 15, 2015 4:06 p.m.
AngryBearTony says... #10
It's actually a bit more complex than that, and simple, too, I think. Once RTR rotated out, we were left with Theros block. Not great mana fixing in there except the temples, and they had utility. M15 had the painlands, which were in enemy colors. Theros was mostly a mono set, with some splashes of duals. Then came Khans with fetches, trilands, and gainlands, all at once. Suddenly mana fixing became very easy, and it made sense to run tri-colored decks because the cards themselves were geared that way, to be tri-color supportive. It's not a natural state for the meta, though, which is faster with the less mana fixing you need. By the time Dragons dropped in, there was no mana fixing to be found, but a lot of dual and mono colored cards were added that could be run over slower Khans tri-color cards. Why make things harder on yourself? It's really Theros' fault. Theros bred mono colored devotion decks, or slow interactions.
April 15, 2015 4:24 p.m.
Yeah, that's certainly part of it. VampireArmy was talking about tricolor being a part of the meta since Innistrad, well M13 and Innistrad had the check lands, which in tandem with RTR's shock lands, made three colors a breeze. Then in RTR/THR, we still had shock lands and temples, which weighted the meta towards aggro-ish decks, like MBD and MUD, and control decks.
Then in KTK, things slow to a grind with temples, tapped trilands, and lifelands, the meta still has RDW and UW Heroic, but those are about the only viable aggro decks in a sea of tricolor midrange and control. Then FRF allows some more freedom, but still Abzan and Sultai are very good, the curdling intensifies into Gw Devotion. The metagame shifts after DTK because beyond Abzan, and maybe Sultai Control/Whip, there is not a good reason/method to stay in three colors.
So, yes, Theros had lands that incentivized slower decks, but KTK took it to higher levels.
April 15, 2015 4:37 p.m.
It has been said that the mana during INN/RTR Standard was too good with all the shock lands and buddy/check lands making three color decks too easy to build. And this Standard having a 3-color set made the mana that much better.
April 15, 2015 4:46 p.m.
alanwescoat says... #13
If Battle for Zendikar gives us back the opposing-color fetch lands, we will see some good things come out of the Khans-block cards. Overall, mana fixing is simply poor, unless you are playing Sylvan Caryatid. Additionally, red is simply strong right now. A couple of weeks ago, I took a mono-red heroic weenies deck with no rares or mythics to a GPTQ and landed in second place against all of the mid-range and wound up in second place. My cards total were worth about $25, and I scored a fat pack out of it.
The lack of decent mana fixing is simply a problem. The allied-color fetch lands enable cards which do not have a great deal of synergy right now, so speed is lacking. In short, the Tarkir block is full of cards with fabulous potential hamstrung by poor mana fixing. M15 gave us opposing-color pain lands, but those just play right into the RDW strategy. Anything that does not come into play tapped costs life among fetch lands, pain lands, and Mana Confluence. The banners and the monuments are useless for constructed. I see a whole lot of interesting cards which seem like they would be playable in Modern but are not playable in Standard.
I tried a black/white warriors (Greyjack Warriors) deck this weekend for Game Day with mixed results. I made top 8 on the first day, but it was tough. I got totally hosed today. If I could use Marsh Flats, I think the deck would sing, but being stuck with Temple of Silence and the even worse Scoured Barrens along with having to take pain from Caves of Koilos makes for some serious problems, especially agaqinst monored, red/green, or mono-green devotion.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #2
It's the way R&D scripted it, they purposely went with 2 color clans due to the story line and to make the 3 color less powerful. Before DTK, 3 color decks were extremely powerful and you would rarely seen a 2 color deck do well (unless it was R/G). I still feel like the 3 color decks are still powerful, but the 2 color decks offer a few things that are better than the previous 3 color decks: 1) Better Mana, 2) Faster board states, 3) Better opening hands (due to the Mana = less mulligans). It all boils down to the mana fixing. It is much easier now with 2 colors to fix your mana rather than worry about needing a Black Mana source or a Blue Mana Source, etc...
April 15, 2015 2:27 p.m.