Collective Blessing in Standard
Standard forum
Posted on Feb. 11, 2014, 10:43 p.m. by brownkidd
With things like Elvish Mystic , Courser of Kruphix , and Voyaging Satyr , there's plenty of ways to ramp into Collective Blessing . It turns all those weenie mana dorks into a more threatening force and can help turn on Karametra, God of the Harvest. Just wondering if it impacts the board enough to be worth the effort.
What are everyone's thoughts on Collective Blessing in standard?
I agree with what GoldGhost012 has said here. I tried desperately to make midrange work but the issue was that I had no removal to take care of aggro, and no amazing 5-6 drops. Sure, Armada Wurm , Archangel of Thune and Angel of Serenity did work here and there, but devoting the deck to ramp (the only way of allowing these cards to see play in G/W) made my matches against control horrendous. Plus, once again, no board wipes or anything of the sort meant aggro steamrolled me often.
G/W mid was incredibly strong before rotation, mostly due to the combo of Thragtusk and Restoration Angel . Not only were these cards amazing on their own -- they synergized incredibly well. Thrag had immediate board presence that hosed aggro. Restoration angel helped to protect against the spot removal against midrange and control. And thrag's ability to leave behind a sizable threat was really good against removal as well. Without something akin to these cards, selesnya mid will almost always have a pretty tough time. The color pie just has a hard time supporting it otherwise.
Lastly, I'd move away from Karametra in standard. G/W wants to focus on aggro and/or tokens based on what was given to us during RTR block, and it appears as though they still want it to be that focus with the printing of cards such as Boon Satyr and Soldier of the Pantheon . Karametra follows an almost entirely opposite approach. It's sad, but it's true.
February 16, 2014 7:50 p.m.
AndyReveler says... #4
I don't think Collective Blessing is totally un-playable, but Karametra, God of Harvests might be (in standard at least). I do like your idea of ramping into it tho and then having the ramping creatures become 4/4s and such. It just might be a too little, too late thing tho, control decks can just boardwipe, decks with enchantment removal (and alot of decks run this) can just remove it, aggro decks will just run through without a second thought, and anything with black and just kill your rampers once they figure out your plan.
On a different I disagree with Spootyone and GoldGhost012 about G/W not being ablt to be midrange. I have a Aggro-ish/Mid-rangey deck that does fairly well, no first place yet, but i get top 8s with it.
February 17, 2014 3:22 p.m.
acousticcancer -- I've taken a look at your build before and again now. I can agree that it is a fine build that is sure to win a lot of games. This is the type of deck G/W players who wish to win games should be playing right now. However, I do have to politely disagree with you that it is proof of midrange being viable in G/W right now. And the reason I say this is that your deck is almost certainly aggro -- not midrange.
Midrange decks often contain noted factors such as high curves and the ability to survive to the creatures in those high curves. This is usually done by a means of ramp, disruption, or both. Back in Innistrad strandard, G/W mid decks had ramp and disruption leading into Thragtusk , Restoration Angel , etc. This is a proper midrange deck by definition. Decks such as yours play above-the-curve 2-, 3-, and 4-drops. This is done without ramp or distortion in most cases, and usually the victory is achieved by quickly destroying the opponent. And that is the definition of an aggro deck.
Not trying to nit-pick. But I do think it's worth mentioning. G/W mid in standard right now would likely involve ramp via Elvish Mystic and/or Sylvan Caryatid into cards like Advent of the Wurm , Armada Wurm , Trostani, Selesnya's Voice , Archangel of Thune etc. And while this sort of deck can win games (I should know. I ran the deck in many forms for quite some time), it has a tendency to be weak against many of the top tier decks running around in the current standard metagame. There is a ton of fantastic spot removal in the form of Hero's Downfall , Mizzium Mortars , Detention Sphere and more, not to mention Supreme Verdict , which does a lot better of a job destroying ramp decks who focus on dorks instead of the now-gone Farseek . There is also no more Oblivion Ring . Thus, G/W mid must resort to using sub-optimal removal such as Celestial Flare , Pit Fight and even Soul Tithe in some cases. And even these can do a very bad job at taking care of the threats facing this sort of deck such as Stormbreath Dragon and Blood Baron of Vizkopa .
As mentioned above, the additional problem G/W now has is sustainability once the big fatties are out on the field. Armada Wurm absolutely poses an immediate threat, but Supreme Verdict is an easy choice against it, and allows all your dorks to hit the grave as well. Archangel of Thune provides a fantastic way to regain health, but in most cases will either die on your end step or as it is declared an attacker. Sure, Gods Willing and Ranger's Guile can counteract this, but relying on spot removal protection is a hideous strategy when cards like Thoughtseize are played so heavily. In fact, Thoughtseize and Lifebane Zombie are another big reason why midrange decks as a whole have a hard time unless they have access to card draw or other means of refueling, something that can really only be done by entering into archetypes like bant and junk. Loxodon Smiter is not enough to counteract the powerful effect these hand disruption cards can have.
Trust me, I wish G/W midrange was a viable deck archetype for competitive standard right now, too, but the fact of the matter is that it simply cannot be with the cards available and the other powerful decks around. G/W aggro, however -- in it's many forms -- is quite decent and so I encourage you and many others to keep pursuing it.
February 17, 2014 3:46 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #6
I have a deck that does a lot of what you're describing, with Collective Blessing
as an integral piece: Selesnya Super-Dorks.
Burning-Tree Emissary and Elspeth, Sun's Champion round out the weenie department, and additional pumps come from Spear of Heliod , Archangel of Thune , Boon Satyr , and Deadbridge Goliath . Finally, Ready / Willing helps survive board wipes and hold off aggro, Grove of the Guardian makes an appearance for kicks, and Garruk, Caller of Beasts digs up your army.
It's definitely not the most competitive deck around, but I'm sure it would win some games (I've never taken it to a tourny), and who doesn't like beating down the opponent with mana dorks?
February 17, 2014 6:54 p.m.
AndyReveler says... #7
So articulate and and logical in your reasoning Spootyone, gotta appreciate it. I can comprehend your argument 100% and can agree Selesnya midrange just pretty hard to pull of without the help of red, black or blue.
I see your argument against my deck too, i guess my logic was that i don't focus on one and two drops like a typical selesnya aggro so i have a chance to be able to change things around mid-late game, which is why i would refer to my deck as midrangy but still pretty aggro, but i understand why its not a true midrange.
February 17, 2014 10:18 p.m.
Hooray for reasonable debating! I appreciate you meeting my argument with no vitriol.
And dont worry, I felt the same way about my own deck -- especially since it began as a more "traditional" midrange deck, but eventually I just had to face the facts in that I was playing a non-traditional (and in most cases non-optimal) G/W aggro deck.
February 17, 2014 10:49 p.m.
cogumerlim says... #9
Spootyone, acousticcancer, I hear what you say, but I like selesnya colors so much that I just can't give up and accept that the selesnya god is just good for nothing (and that Selesnya Midrange, my favorite style, is destined to lose). When there was only Theros, there was really no option: it was aggro or death. But I have to politely disagree with you when it comes to midrange now. I still have to write the deck here on TappedOut, but I think it may be worth a look.With this deck, I rarely lose to aggro - usually only when I screw or flood, but that's inherent to the game. It has really fair games against monoblack and monoblue, and a fairly easy time against red (even with the dragon). The most difficult matchup is against control, because it abuses so much on creatures that board wipe is a huge threat. But at the mean time, there are SO MANY creatures that the opponent has to wipe many times or counter many times, and we usually have other threats to pose. Additionally, I have a sideboard that comes almost completely to the fore on game 2, and helps push damage through (and even win a game in one turn, as I've already done on occasion, with a well-timed savage summoning with an Armada Wurm and a 6/6 Mistcutter Hydra). I'll write it down in this site now and look forward to your comments. :)
February 21, 2014 8:48 a.m.
cogumerlim says... #10
Spootyone, acousticcancer, I've written the deck here on the site. Here's the link:
Selesnya Midrange BNG Playtest
Standard
SCORE: 0 | 0 COMMENTS | 2 VIEWSI look forward to your comments! :)
February 21, 2014 9:08 a.m.
Ultimaodin says... #11
Now I'm going to both agree and disagree with a lot that is said here. First off Selesnya is definitely catered to aggro, that said I feel Midrange is becoming more plausible. I also think Karametra, God of Harvests is playable regardless what many others think - then again I'm playing Howl of the Nightpack so extra forests just make me happy.
Collective Blessing - I've tossed around since I first saw it, but it has never once felt worth it. The issue is the massive 6mana, for that I may as well play Primeval Bounty - and again that's generally a win more. Better yet, Garruk, Caller of Beasts . The thing is, I cant see this ever seeing play. Before rotation Thragtusk and other OP beasties just made this card unplayable. Now with Theros, there is a bucket tonne of Enchantment Removal to the point that 6mana doesn't feel worth it, especially if your ramp dies and your sitting with a hand of 6drops and nothing to do. If your running Karametra sure this is more plausible, but if your running Karametra you'd rather be running stuff that makes here abuse-able - such as the aforementioned Howl or Rubblehulk etc...
cogumerlim - I actually kindoflike that build - but yeah, control would wreck it. My deck suffers from,other mid-range hurt me but aggro and control I decimate. :/
February 21, 2014 10:36 a.m.
cogumerlim says... #12
Ultimaodin, you just game me a great idea with that mention to Rubblehulk!! With that ton of lands and the angels, I can close the game out in a single swing with them. And nobody would see it coming, because "I don't play red". Really, it's normal to get to 11, 12 lands. Add that to a 6/5 Angel and that's game! And its bloodrush can't be countered! :) I'll think of ways of using it. But it certainly fits a role here - grows with the lands karametra gives me and can come back via the angel's ability. Maybe a one or two-of may suffice.
GoldGhost012 says... #2
Most of the time Selesnya builds need to go fast or go home. There is isn't enough support for a midrange build compared to an aggro build. I believe Spootyone's original Selesnya build tried to be midrange, but it transitioned to a more aggro build because it could close out games better. Collective Blessing isn't terribad for midrange, but most of the time they want to paly other support like Unflinching Courage or Monstrousing Fleecemane Lion , and it's too slow for aggro. It's more of a win-more card in my opinion.
February 11, 2014 10:52 p.m.