[Community Discussion]: Standard Chat
Standard forum
Posted on Oct. 3, 2015, 11:37 p.m. by Epochalyptik
Just like Modern, Standard now has its own "chat" thread. We're hoping that this thread draws avid Standard players to share their knowledge.
This thread is dedicated entirely to Standard. Feel free to post your thoughts on the meta, ideas for your next decklist, and just chat generally about the format!
Of course, you can always start a new thread if you're interested in discussing one particular aspect of the format; this thread should be used for the quick thoughts and informal questions about the format.
This discussion will be ongoing; you are free to post here as long as you're on topic.
This is NOT a deck help thread. Please do not spam deck help requests.
pumpkinwavy says... #2
How do you know what's happening in the pro tour? I can't find it anywhere. Can someone post a link plz? Also, go jeskai!
October 18, 2015 4:19 p.m.
Yeah lol. In small ways it allows splashing the 4th color quite easily.
For instance by dropping the possibility of either a T1 Bloodsoaked Champion or a T1 Mardu Woe-Reaper and just getting rid of the Woe Reaper I can fetch a Prairie Stream T3 for Mantis Rider. Now this doesn't mean I can put in 2 drop 
spells, and the 4 drop is still Butcher of the Horde for me, but hitting for 6 and then still having a Mantis Rider and a Butcher to block on T4 is still pretty scary for my opponent.
On the other hand if I was only playing 1 or 2 Bloodsoaked Champion for late-game recursion and wanted Mardu Woe-Reaper T1 due to the heavy presence of Den Protector and Deathmist Raptor I could make my T1 lands favor 
meaning I would get to fetch Sunken Hollow T3 and still hit my color requirements. This still gives me 
on T3 so it still works with Crackling Doom like the example before.
Method 1:
T1: Swamp - Bloodsoaked Champion
T2: Mountain or Smoldering Marsh (I don't like Smoldering Marsh here)- Another 1 drop or a 2 drop or spell.
T3: Prairie Stream or fetch to it - Mantis Rider
T4: Whatever land - Butcher of the Horde
Method 2:
T1: Plains - Mardu Woe-Reaper
T2: Mountain or Smoldering Marsh - Whatever
T3: Sunken Hollow or fetch to it - Mantis Rider
T4: Whatever land - Butcher of the Horde
Mardu creature builds are decks that are heavily punished by missing the wrong colors, but from my play tests splashing just for Mantis Rider really doesn't change things much if anything at all in a negative way. The natural color screw that would happen in the deck are still the biggest problems, as they are with pretty much any tri-color deck trying to curve out without mana fixing.
October 18, 2015 4:22 p.m.
No!!!! My internet dropped for a second they didn't already Finnish game 4 did they?
October 18, 2015 4:54 p.m.
pumpkinwavy says... #7
Sigh. Abzan wins again. I was really cheering jeskai on.
October 18, 2015 5:09 p.m.
Dromoka's Command just crushed jeskai's dreams.
Kind of a bummer for Jeskai that Abzan kept Dromoka's Command while Jeskai lost Lightning Strike.
October 18, 2015 5:10 p.m.
I found a lot of the tournament quite dull.
The same plays over and over again.
To me Origins was more interesting with more variety and some new ideas like the Thopter decks.
October 18, 2015 6:40 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #12
yeah I think this standard looks dull right now. Unfortunately.
October 18, 2015 7:16 p.m.
deathtouch_roadrunner says... #13
Only 2 new decks from the PT: UB Aristocrats, which did okay but not great, and Retreat to Emeria, which did rather well overall, particularly considering how few players played it.
October 18, 2015 11:42 p.m.
Fried_Mana says... #15
The Standard meta as of now is just three or four best decks. That is sad to me and is something that I think wizards should fix with Oath of the Gatewatch.
October 24, 2015 10:23 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #17
I really think black is unnecessary in Jeskai control. Crackling Doom is kind of meh compared to what Jeskai already has (Jeskai Charm, Wild Slash, Scatter to the Winds, Radiant Flames...). Splashing black for win cons is pointless when everyone is running removal, ultimately it's better just to focus on a solid 3 colour deck and play with a little redundancy mixed with a handful of good win cons.
My deck; American Kung-Fu won Game Day, and you can see that this deck would be trouble for most standard decks out there. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip is a beast on the field, and when you're pumping super value spells like Hordeling Outburst and Exquisite Firecraft, you're making Jace into a bigger and bigger threat, not to mention that you're taking extra advantage of Jeskai Ascendancy and creating much bigger threats much faster than your opponent can. Radiant Flames is really excellent control for cards like Hangarback Walker and Deathmist Raptor (pesky threats). Day's Undoing allows you to be a little bit liberal with how you spare your spells, because you can get them back to play again, it also helps against Sphinx's Tutelage decks.
I think this is the way to go in standard right now. It's a very versatile archetype.
October 25, 2015 2:41 a.m.
RedDiomedes says... #18
I know Temur was not in the top 8 but was their any decent temur decks in the lower levels? Any decent ramp decks?
October 25, 2015 6:53 a.m.
AndWelcomeToTheJam says... #19
@Fleetwood-Mat Crackling Doom is the best answer for Dragonlord Ojutai. Scatter to the Winds is the only other card you named that can deal with it.
October 25, 2015 12:28 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #20
AndWelcomeToTheJam; So, to deal with one standard card, you're going to go from a 3 colour deck to a 4 colour deck? I think if I see Dragonlord Ojutai, I would be better off just outracing her than trying to simply remove her. Another option is attacking with Mantis Rider, hoping she blocks and then just fire off your Radiant Flames. Also, if she decides to attack in, she loses hexproof when she taps, so you can just Jeskai Charm to remove her. I really think that it's folly to add a fourth colour just to deal with one card, you're taking too much away from your own effectiveness.
October 25, 2015 1:58 p.m.
Dalektable says... #21
Fleetwood-Mat Fact of the matter is, Dark Jeskai has proven itself to be a dominant force in standard tested with results backing it up to show it is successful. The mana in standard right now is so insane playing four colors is honestly hardly a hindrance, adding the fourth color allows you access to some very powerful spells that ultimately improve your deck. The deck doesnt solely splash for Crackling Doom, there is also Tasigur, Kolaghan's Command, Murderous Cut and other sideboard options. I'm not claiming plain Jeskai is bad, but I think Dark Jeskai has proven itself to be the pro's choice.
October 25, 2015 2:44 p.m.
RedDiomedes I had a quick look and couldn't find any pro Temur decks from the recent tour.
Everybody seemS to have time warped back to KTK.
October 25, 2015 3:01 p.m.
GP Quebec had 24 copies of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip in the Top8. On the same day MOCS had 0 copies of Baby-Jace in the Top8, but it had 25 copies of Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and 31 copies of Hangarback Walker in the Top8 (the 32nd copy was a sideboard card).
And we thought RTR/THS Standard with Mono-Blue, Mono-Black and U/W control was boring...
October 26, 2015 6:01 a.m.
maddsurgeon says... #24
This might have been said already, but I wanted to point out that the difference between running a wedge deck and running a wedge deck + a splashed fourth color is barely any difference at all.
With the absence of enemy fetches/enemy tangos, the best manabase for a wedge is arguably one that allows you to fetch for a fourth color. For example, Flooded Strand has never been great in a Jeskai deck because it can't fetch mountains. However, Polluted Delta can fetch Prairie Stream or Smoldering Marsh or Sunken Hollow, meaning it can get all three of your colors with a fourth thrown in for "free." This requires a lot of math in constructing the deck and careful sequencing during play, but it's not unmanageable. So it would be a mistake to assume people are going well out of their way to splash these powerful cards.
October 26, 2015 9:30 a.m.
Mandalorian says... #25
RedDiomedes, I dont know about ramp but the best Temur deck Ive seen of late is a Coco one. They splash white for Mantis Rider and Coco into them, Savage Knuckleblade, Yasova Dragonclaw, and Heir of the Wilds.
Fleetwood-Mat I agree and disagree. I agree with Dalektable in that it has proven itself to be very good but also I think the mana is more difficult than people think. I love Jeskai and have been playing it for months, tried the black version for a week or two and hated it. There were many times I needed another source of a color but couldn't, I fiddled and playtested with the mana for hours trying to find a good balance. Even John Finkle, an amazing magic player, got stuck on colors in the Pro Tour and it was the smoother less flashier version of Jeskai that ended up beating him.
In my Jeskai deck I replaced 3 red sources with Cinder Glade so that Windswept Heath could fetch all three of my colors. With a free 
splash I play 1 Dragonlord Dromoka; 1 green spell in the 75 but full on 4 colors is easy to set up but very complicated to play.
October 26, 2015 11:45 a.m.
One thing I've noticed is that it is not too hard to build a four-colour deck, but it is trickier to build one that stays on tempo.
Might just be my novice building.
Also, why are more people not playing Ruinous Path? My local meta plays as though it doesn't exist. Every time I wreck a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar with one there is abject surprise.
October 26, 2015 1:10 p.m.
RedDiomedes says... #27
Abzan and Jeskai Black all have access to Abzan Charm or Utter End which is almost the same thing but at instant speed
October 26, 2015 2:09 p.m.
People aren't playing those either, which is weird.
Maybe it's just my freaky little meta. It always seems to make some strange choices.
I've also noticed that people seem to rely on Gideon, Ally of Zendikar becoming a Creature. Otherwise Abzan Charm is useless against him being a 2/2 Ally factory.
October 26, 2015 2:19 p.m. Edited.
Mandalorian says... #29
I didn't play a whole lot during RTR block because I was fairly new but Im pretty sure Dreadbore wasn't terribly popular either once Hero's Downfall came out, but I may be wrong about that.
Argeaux is right, the decks running black also have access to white like Esper, Abzan, and Jeskai Black. They would rather pay the 1 extra mana to get an exile catch all at instant speed.
October 26, 2015 3:28 p.m.
nonstripedzebra says... #30
Standard is pretty dull right now. It is sad that a majority of decks will run playsets of siege rhino, jace, or hangarbacks. No variety. Beating that spike atarka red list with my budget bant morph deck has been the highlight of my fnm forays since bfz has released. Think I will just stay away from fnm for a while since my lgs plays tourney winning decks almost exclusively. It's just kinda boring when 2 out of 4 matches are the same deck. I have only been playing about 1 year but this can't be the way it always is... right? The most fun I have is throwing around deck ideas and trying them out, but a little variety in opponents would be nice. I don't see myself winning a lot, but I tend to win maybe 1 or 2 rounds each time I go, and that's good enough for me knowing I used something I created, and didn't just copy from a top 8 gp/pt player. But I digress, everyone has their own idea of fun.
October 26, 2015 4:59 p.m.
Gorgosaurusrex says... #31
nonstripedzebra: That's how FNMs have always been in my area. There will always be a few players who try out new deck ideas or just come to have fun but the majority of players have top tier decks and are there to win.
October 26, 2015 5:09 p.m.
Mandalorian says... #32
I don't know about that nonstripedzebra, that may be just a local thing. Yes certain decks are doing better than others but that is normal. Pretty sure 6 of the top 8 decks at DTK Pro Tour were control but that didn't mean people weren't winning with Coco decks, token decks, devotion, Whip decks ect...
I think weve seen some cool stuff with Bring to Light decks, Hardened Scales decks, Aristocrats, Life Gain/Drain.
If anything it makes the sideboard tech easy and as long as your having fun with your own brew then that's what matters.
October 26, 2015 5:17 p.m.
nonstripedzebra says... #33
Perhaps. I did play a guy playing a semi-aristocratic allies deck. It was a fantastic match, and I lost 0-2, but we both had a good time. Coulda just been that as players we were comfortable enough to laugh about me bouncing his nantukos (almost) every time after he sacced 2 or 3 creatures. Kor bladewhirls really put the hurt on a bunch of 2/2s haha.
October 26, 2015 5:31 p.m.
nonstripedzebra says... #34
I do like the various takes on the sacrificial decks right now.
October 26, 2015 5:32 p.m.
I'm with you, nonstripedzebra.
I found the BFZ pro tour dull, and am tired of seeing the same cards / plays all the time.
I may sit quite a few games out this expansion.
What I've been doing is setting myself two goals:
If they shove a Hangarback Walker in their deck I exile it.
If they shove a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in thei deck, then make a 2/2 Knight Ally, I Ruinous Path it.
Excellent to see their faces after these things are dead.
You can tell a lot of deck building is just lazy, "This is the card of the moment so I'm gonna shove it in, no matter how well it suits my deck".
The only other card that has shit me so much is Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker. I used to Turn to Frog him then block with any old thing. "But he's Indestructible!" they would wail.
None. Just a 1/1 Froggy. Say goodbye.
October 27, 2015 3:23 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #37
That's silly... I'm not sure I know a player who spent more than $300 on their Standard deck since rotation. If you have to buy back into KTK fetches or want to play Jace at this point then yeah your wallet is going to get raped as hard as buying one of cheapest Modern decks. In reality most Standard players got their fetches when they were around $10 and in some cases even lower. My deck is listed around $700 but there is no chance that if you totaled the price per card at time of purchase my deck is more than $450. That $450 is spaced over 16 or so months.
I find it funny that Modern players complain when Standard has no cards of eternal value and then turn around and try to draw attention to the "unreasonable" cost of decks when it cotains multi-format staples. WotC can't win.
October 27, 2015 9:05 a.m.
Yeah, not everyone was lucky enough to grab fetches for a steal.
KTK was my second pre-release. I had no idea what to expect and at that stage didn't even understand the value of fetch lands, like a lot of new players.
I think that's why I've become so fond of the cheaper pain lands, over the year I've been playing.
Of course, sometimes you NEED to add a fetch to your deck. That's when I start crying.
October 27, 2015 9:22 a.m.
Mandalorian says... #39
I think the Pro Tour was dull as well. I much prefer watching SCG tournaments than Pro Tours because they tend to be much more diverse. The people that go to Pro Tours go in teams and everyone on the team plays the same deck list. Finkle and Turtenwald ran the EXACT Jeskai Black deck down to the lands and sideboard. Modern had like 8 Affinity decks and 8 G/W Hexproof decks.....boring. Sam Black (my favorite) is the only one willing to show up to Pro Tours with original ideas and builds i.e. Mono White Devotion (top 8), R/G Bees, Amulet Bloom ect.
October 27, 2015 11:27 a.m.
I don't think I paid more than $10 a fetch land to complete my play sets when KTK was out. And I also got my foil jaces for $18 dollars each the first week he was out. Taking advantage of that by running 5 color tap-out control. Absolutely dominates Jeskai Black, GW Megamorph, and other random shit. Not great vs. control decks with 10-14 counterspells, but it's decent.
October 27, 2015 2:53 p.m.
I can understand competitive players wanting to play with the most efficient and powerful deck they can afford, because they play to compete, and that's how they have fun. If you also play to compete, then finding and tuning a competitive deck is pretty much what you're going to be doing. I can't really empathise with players who are upset about not being able to win games, who complain that other players have better decks. At that point you have to come to terms with the fact that really you're one and the same with those players, and that requires a certain amount of investment (time and money).
But of course just because other players are running tier lists, doesn't mean you can't have fun with your own brew. It just means finding more enjoyment in different parts of the game, such as the deckbuilding process itself. Something most users of this site should be no strangers to :) At the same time, deck builders are responsible for originating the ideas that later become the top decks of the format. No format is solved just because the spikes say it is (they are more focused in the here and now of grinding out results and that doesn't always lend itself to creative thinking...).
Most people I know don't really operate at either extreme of Spike or Jenny, they're somewhere in the middle, which is good because that way you probably net more enjoyment in the long term :) However if you only enjoy competing or only enjoy putting together decks and playing those decks, then it's probably best to find likeminded people to play against, rather than playing against your polar opposite.
edit: I'll also add that you'll often find a larger variety of decks to play against on MTGO than in your local store.
October 27, 2015 2:58 p.m. Edited.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #42
somsoc; That's a good way to put it. I always go in with unique ideas, then based on what I'm up against, I'll tweak my deck to make it better. I'll be the first to admit that my deck during Origins was too slow, but at least it was fun to play with, and I learned a thing or two about the meta while I was playing it. That deck was a U/B Sphinx's Tutelage deck that also used playsets of Altar of the Brood, Profane Memento and Tormod's Crypt. On Game Day I faced an Esper Control deck that had Tutelage as one of its few win cons, the deck was very good, it beat me game 1, but after sideboarding, I took the next two games to take sole possession of the lead. The key against that kind of deck was more aggressiveness. Unfortunately for my opponent, Tormod's Crypt has left standard, so there was no way to secure the milling he got with his Tutelage against my Day's Undoing.
My current deck (the Game Day winner) isn't a netdeck idea. I personally think Hangarback Walker is somewhat pointless in BFZ meta, and I don't think it's entirely necessary to load up more than a lone Mantis Rider. You're just inviting people to sideboard in Silkwrap and Utter End to put a grinding stop to your win streak. I find it better to load up on 'harder to deal with' type threats like Hordeling Outburst and Jeskai Ascendancy. I wanted threats that would be complimented by my utility cards (Jeskai Charm, Exquisite Firecraft and Wild Slash), and the way I see it is that Hordeling Outburst and Dragon Fodder can double as utility cards (make quick blockers/attackers) as well as being threats for the opponent to think about. Hangarback Walker can be quite easily dealt with using Silkwrap or Radiant Flames, taking him out of your deck for future use, whereas those answers are not as devastating for goblin tokens. The deck's "big" threats should only be one-ofs. The threats I use are Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Mantis Rider, Monastery Mentor, Monastery Swiftspear, Dragonmaster Outcast and Soulfire Grand Master. The way I see it; Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip allows me to recur spells from my graveyard, so I can often times just win by spamming damage from Exquisite Firecraft and Jeskai Charm or spamming goblin tokens without seeing any of my win cons, and if it's difficult enough to answer that for my opponent, wait 'til I drop Mantis Rider or Gideon, Ally of Zendikar on them.
See, I'm a control player, so I automatically decided on blue, but the way the meta was looking in standard over the last year, it seems like it's suicide to go without red. Red can stop aggro decks better than any other colour right now using Wild Slash or Radiant Flames. It also has some of the fastest threats (Mantis Rider and Monastery Swiftspear). I decided that as little sense as it made; you can't really expect to win with control unless you include red. Those Esper control decks? Too slow, they might be dead by the time they can cast a Languish, or if they don't die by then, they're hanging on by like 4-5 life and find themselves needing to rely on their topdecks to save them over the next 3 turns. It's really sad to say that right now the best colour for both aggro AND control is red. Obviously WotC is catering to casual players and budget deck builders with this meta. Only thing is, now RDW is no longer a "budget" deck.
October 27, 2015 4:36 p.m.
@Fleetwood-Mat Hmm, I agree that Red is a key part of the meta right now, but not that it's inherently a casual colour, or that there is such a thing :) Red is a control colour in its own way even though it gets stuck with the aggro label, and knowing how to control games by sequencing cheap spells is difficult. It's not just about turning things sideways.
October 27, 2015 4:48 p.m. Edited.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #44
Well, lately it's not a budget colour. Super prowess decks that were very prominent during Kahns block and Origins standard metas were much more budget than the current Atarka Red decks as well as the U/R Thopters deck that prevailed in Origins. Even the less competitive RDW lists are listed around $300+ because of cards like Abbot of Keral Keep and Thunderbreak Regent. Obviously, nothing on those lists compares to Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip, but it wasn't too long ago that people were rolling in with $100 decks that were winning FNM and Game Day. Also, regardless of how red cards are starting to break away from being "budget" in standard, you still need to realize that red is still the premiere budget option for Modern players, and WotC have had absolutely no problem with printing new red modern staples in every standard set over the last year.
The only reason I chose Jeskai for my standard deck right now is because I lacked options in every colour EXCEPT red. What's most upsetting is that I have not played red in standard for the last 2 years, and everyone kept beating me with it, and now that I'm using it, I'm beating everyone. It makes me feel like WotC has very little imagination, and they stacked the cards too much on one side of the spectrum. You can't stop red without red, so what's the point to play anything else?
October 27, 2015 5:33 p.m.
I don't know why you think you can't beat red without red, because I haven't had any issues doing exactly that for the last few years, including this format.
You want to beat Red, you use what it's weak against. So you play something like GW megamorph, which just curves out with better creatures. Or play Abzan, which can go kill spell, kill spell, Siege Rhino/Languish. If your complaint is that Blue based control decks can't beat it, that's something entirely different, because that's the point. Control is weak to aggro, and aggro is weak to midrange.
November 2, 2015 4:57 a.m.
Gorgosaurusrex says... #47
Do you guys think running Jeskai Black (or whatever it's called) without Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip is worth it? I have all the other cards but $70 for a standard card is a hard pill to swallow. I'd use 3-4 Soulfire Grand Master and some Draconic Roar in Jace's slot (I run 3 Dragonlord Ojutai and 4 Thunderbreak Regent).
November 5, 2015 6:49 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #49
Yeah i think that's fair. Not "optimal" but you'll probably do just fine with that
TheNextRedDude says... #1
I sense Wingmate Roc will soon be worth many American moneys.
October 18, 2015 3:46 p.m.