[Community Discussion]: Standard Chat
Standard forum
Posted on Oct. 3, 2015, 11:37 p.m. by Epochalyptik
Just like Modern, Standard now has its own "chat" thread. We're hoping that this thread draws avid Standard players to share their knowledge.
This thread is dedicated entirely to Standard. Feel free to post your thoughts on the meta, ideas for your next decklist, and just chat generally about the format!
Of course, you can always start a new thread if you're interested in discussing one particular aspect of the format; this thread should be used for the quick thoughts and informal questions about the format.
This discussion will be ongoing; you are free to post here as long as you're on topic.
This is NOT a deck help thread. Please do not spam deck help requests.
Wow.. I have never seen that card and I guessed it perfectly XD
Ok so Werewolves needs something else... else?
June 7, 2016 7:08 a.m.
Something like Immerwolf or a better way to protect them...
June 7, 2016 8:08 a.m.
I feel that green red midrange werewolves is already a competitive deck due to how fast and consistent it is. It usually wins around T5-6 and that's versus a whole range of powerful decks in the format.
The only reason it's not played more at a high level is that there's not really too much play to the deck, and it kind of builds itself, so less opportunities for competitive players to out strategise their opponents. I enjoy playing it, but it does mean it's less fun for some people. Doesn't mean it's not powerful though.
It comes with the same caveats as all beat-down decks in that if it gets stuck into a grindy game it doesn't have the tools to overcome the value mid-range decks that are popular now. Aggro players are familiar with this feeling but I know that control players avoid these decks just because they do not enjoy being in that situation!
Also Arlin Kord should really be the centerpiece of the deck, but she doesn't really do enough, and feels like an awkward conclusion at times, despite occasionally producing interesting board states. If anything, she wants to go into an even more mid-range deck but there's not really a density of dynamic mid-range green and red cards right now.
June 8, 2016 9:42 a.m. Edited.
If the only reason for the lack of werewolves in Standard was "not really too much play", then GW tokens would not be the deck to beat in the meta, as it has the same issue.
The reason is that werewolves do not do enough and have little synergy. What are your payoffs for being a CoCo werewolves deck compared to the current top CoCo deck? Losing on Avacyn and Gideon and Tireless Tracker and Thalia's Lieutenant in order to play Arlinn and Howlpack Resurgence and weak vanilla creatures that only become powerful when the opponent plays nothing?
June 8, 2016 9:56 a.m.
Density of well statted value creatures that don't come in as 1/1s is the main reason, besides the flavour of it. When oppo is 'doing nothing', which happens plenty, you're not doing nothing, your deck is exploding. So you give up the power of those cards to gain more consistency.
And sometimes I'm willing to give up a few percentage points to play with a werewolf deck. Of course it doesn't have the powerful white cards, but it can pump out so much pressure that it more often overwhelms decks like the G/W humans deck. Those cards are rarely if ever a problem in my experience, they can't block or attack, they just get run over.
Sure most people would rather play with Tireless Tracker and Thalia's Lieutenant since they are much cooler cards with neat interactions, but there's a lot of efficiency in transforming 2 mana creatures, or 2 mana first striking 2/2s that are first striking 4/4s on the turn you play Arlin (Scourge Wolf).
It's just the thing that, as I say, if you get stuck into a mid-range duel you're unlikely to mind-mage your way out of it, and a lot of people don't take these decks to tournaments for that reason, since strategy represents a legitimate edge over their opponents.
June 8, 2016 10:15 a.m. Edited.
pumpkinwavy says... #7
I'm not quite sure what the mystery is surrounding why werewolves are bad. Few individually super-powered werewolves + a VERY small pool of playable werewolves + a low payoff for playing werewolves = no good werewolves deck.
Duskwatch Recruiter Flip and Lambholt Pacifist Flip are the only two good cards in the entire hypothetical werewolves deck, and they are better supported in a Sylvan Advocate or Thalia's Lieutenant deck.
Then there's the whole problem of the werewolves needing the opponent to do nothing to be good, which would make werewolves great at punishing stumbling but very weak when the opponent has a decent draw. A deck that can only win when the opponent stumbles is not going to succeed in standard.
June 8, 2016 7:09 p.m.
So then given all that, what would Eldritch Moon have to give us to make them playable?
June 8, 2016 7:19 p.m.
I wouldn't rely too much on Eldritch Moon boosting the power of Werewolf decks.
I say this because Elf decks were similar in Battle for Zendikar, quite good but not powerful enough to wreck face.
People speculated that Oath of the Gatewatch would provide the last piece of the puzzle to make them better, but it didn't.
Eldritch Moon may or may not provide a boost for Werewolves. What I'm really hoping for is a Legendary Werewolf that will make EDH decks viable, like General Tazri did for Allies.
June 9, 2016 5:17 a.m.
I got inspired by the latest deckcycle article to make a decent Ever After deck, but with no ORI or DTK cards to prep for the nearest rotation.
So, the options are as follows:
1/ Ramp deck with some discard/self mill that is solely focused on reanimation asap
2/ Control deck that cast and reanimates threats in the mid-late game.
3/ Aggro-Midrange deck that tops its at 4, but has several Ever After for the lategame.
June 9, 2016 5:43 a.m.
@Boza: That's very interesting. Do you have some creatures that you would specifically want to target with Ever After? I love trying to find uses for cards that don't see much play. In my most recent deck A Grave Situation I brewed around Graveblade Marauder. There is plenty of discard and self-mill in there so if you need somewhere to start you could check it out to get some ideas.
June 9, 2016 10:24 a.m.
The juciest target is Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, followed by Linvala, the Preserver perhaps. Keep in mind I am only looking at BFZ, OGW and SOI creatures.
June 9, 2016 11:08 a.m.
pumpkinwavy says... #13
Ever After targeting Sidisi, Undead Vizier and another juicy creature, finding a second copy of Ever After and sending sidisi back to the 'yard seems like a combo. Perhaps you could throw it in a deck with Dark Petition and Seasons Past and have the slowest, clunkiest deck ever with two unstoppable loops that WILL out value and out power you.
June 9, 2016 5:58 p.m.
JaceArveduin says... #14
Dragonlord Kolaghan and Dragonlord Atarka for 15 damage in the air and 5 damage to any blockers that might be a thing. Shame that Atarka, World Render isn't legal, because she'd make it a combo kill.
June 9, 2016 7:21 p.m.
I want to see a deck playing Deathbringer Regent totally take over the game versus 
tokens.
June 9, 2016 10:36 p.m.
Zaueski and kengiczar inspired me to try my first attempt at a standard vampire/werewolf deck.
Underworld
Standard*
SCORE: 1 | 57 VIEWS
I'll play test it in a few minutes - Big maybe board. Some werewolves are quite good and there are some nice instants and enchantments too i.e. Howlpack Resurgence and Moonlight Hunt. I think if you focus on strictly werewolves that they could be quite powerful combined with Arlinn Kord Flip. I'll try a werewolves only deck soon when I'm satisfied with this.
June 10, 2016 9:53 a.m.
@ Zaueski I agree with Argeaux in that I'm not hoping for any amazing werewolf cards in Eldritch Moon, unless they push the story in that direction. It's just a fun inexpensive deck that would have to be pretty busted to be played more at a tournament level due to the reasons I already mentioned (stigma of playing efficient beat down decks without plan B requires very high powered individual cards to encourage people to play the deck). Doesn't get enough people playing it in tournaments to put up noticeable numbers, so it gets called a bad deck, but it's in the same camp as the majority of 'not absolute tier 1' decks, depending on meta shifts you could see someone play it and do really well, and all of a sudden people are going to be praising it as the best deck in standard. People are incredibly fickle! The difference between the very best decks and the rest is just several good cards and perception amongst tournament goers.
We already got Arlin, I don't know if she was there in place of the flip werewolf that commander players wanted, or whether that character will turn up, but it would have to be pretty impressive to satisfy both camps of players.
June 10, 2016 7:05 p.m.
Well... about that werewolf. How's an 8/8 for 5 mana? Wolves deck needed a curve topper!
June 21, 2016 7:46 p.m.
It's been gone for awhile, but now that I have a bit more time to use on it, I'm trying to update the Standard format primer I last updated in DTK days:
Standard Format Primer (EMN UPDATES ONGOING)
Standard
SCORE: 11 | 28 COMMENTS | 1032 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER
July 29, 2016 12:31 p.m.
Played a jund superfriends deck at fnm and finally got to play Liliana, the Last Hope and I must say I was thoroughly impressed. It nerfs Sylvan Advocate and Reflector Mage to non-issue sizes and I actually got to ultimate it several games. Also got a white weeny player to scoop to her as he was on the mostly 1-drop version (which all had 1 toughness).
Also Oath of Liliana is legit and I want at least one more copy of it. With how many planeswalkers I was playing I was getting a serious amount of chump blocking zombies.
July 30, 2016 4:24 a.m.
@nfcnorth Yeah I agree... the superfriends deck is pretty real now. What numbers of planeswalkers were you running? I've been playing the 5-colour pre-EMN version for a few weeks and it was close to being powerful enough - but Tamiyo and Liliana are going to make it pretty nuts! I'd like to hear more about how Liliana plays in it. Oath of Liliana I am excited for the mono black zombies deck where you can get down a lot of cheap blockers and let Liliana go to work there.
I'm yet to play her, but it seems like there are a lot of bad situations where she comes down and dies the next turn, and you get almost nothing out of it. For example, if oppo doesn't have a creature out on T3 when you play her, do you +1 and get no value? It's unlikely you'd have a creature to return from the graveyard. Against certain decks you can't -2 because she'll eat any burn spell. And if she comes down after T3 when oppo has multiple creatures.. best case she kills a token and then dies?
Seems like she's going to be very reliant on being played on T3. Or maybe a sideboard card against 1 toughness creatures? (very good against red)
Were you running Vessel of Volatility? In the superfriends deck it lets you drop a six cost planeswalker on turn 4 if you have Oath of Nissa out. Credit to Saito for that piece of tech, it's really sweet to accelerate out planeswalkers, and usually means you have two in play and overwhelming your opponent with power.
July 30, 2016 8:50 a.m. Edited.
@somesocI am a base B/G deck splashing red for Dragonlord Atarka, Arlinn Kord Flip and a few sideboard cards so the vessel wouldn't do me any good as I don't run/own Oath of Nissa same with Chandra, Flamecaller. Plus I would rather cut back on my red spells if anything as it makes my mana better.
As for Liliana, the Last Hope I often found that pulsing on an empty board is the correct line of play for me. Yeah I could be digging for some threats but to be honest a lot of those threats I could be digging for were much easier for my opponents to interact with than Liliana herself was and her ultimate. Like one deck I faced was a silly home brew W/U Engulf the Shore deck (its pretty good and made top 8 which is where were paired) that is good at clearing the board of creatures or making them otherwise unable to attack but all the board wipes in the world are not going to stop Liliana's ultimate from making more zombies than you can board wipe away.
To be fair the matches I saw her were not against black decks (which can run planeswalker removal) but against those decks I had pretty decent success in keeping all the threats at bay with my other cards and didn't really need to find other threats that Liliana herself. Plus if the situation ever changed to where I need to find something else asap the extra loyalty from pulsing on the first turns she was out came in handy. I had more success waiting as it let me have a better grasp on what creatures are best suited to handle my opponents board (or at least made the best attempt to stabilize) rather than just finding any creature if things went south for me.
As for what planewalkers I am running: two Arlin's, two Ob Nixlus, two of each Liliana (orgins one and the new one for a combined total of 4 liliana's), and one of each Nissa (want to run two origins one but only have one of each).
July 31, 2016 2:23 a.m.
@nfcnorth Thanks, I appreciate the write up :) Sounds like a deck that will have lots of good match ups, and even against the aggro decks, if they pass without playing a creature on the first few turns I bet your deck just runs away with it. It makes me interested to try the purely green/black version with more of those creatures, not sure if the power is there though without Atarka etc.
August 1, 2016 12:51 a.m. Edited.
GeminiSpartanX says... #25
Are there any good GY-controlling spells/hosers in standard right now? I'm trying to combat Den Protector and Delirium decks, and would like to know my options.
August 1, 2016 1:12 p.m.
GeminiSpartanX says... #27
Should have got my Lilys sooner....
Also still looking for good GY hate in standard, and not seeing much. Delirium decks did well in the PT, so I'd really like to know of any ways to turn that ability off.
August 7, 2016 10:45 p.m. Edited.
What is the graveyard hate for? I mean which cards or decks specifically?
August 8, 2016 12:23 a.m.
The best real option is incidental effects like counters that exile spells or removal that exiles, or disruption like Infinite Obliteration to target the main threats like Emrakul, however if you're playing that in a black deck then you're probably on a graveyard strategy yourself. If you're playing against reanimation decks then Hallowed Moonlight stops some decks from having a ridiculous turn, but it's not as popular now as it was a few months back (versus the white token decks).
They deliberately avoided printing anything that works against the graveyard right now (but maybe in Kaladesh..).
August 8, 2016 7:18 a.m. Edited.
GeminiSpartanX
A few more Graveyard hate options ...
- Learn from the Past. And Day's Undoing, kind of.
- Hedonist's Trove
And of course Exile effects to keep cards from getting to the Graveyard in the first place ... Incendiary Flow, Void Shatter, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, etc.
August 8, 2016 7:41 a.m. Edited.
August 8, 2016 7:58 a.m.
GeminiSpartanX says... #32
Thanks for the heads-up. I'm on the abzan plan in standard currently, but it looks like it's either play blue or just deal with their Delirium decks. I am running a pair of Infinite Obliterations in the SB and 2 Kalitas' in the MD, but I was hoping for something a little better than a 7-drop enchantment in non-blue colors to take care of non-creatures in GYs. :-/
August 8, 2016 8:59 a.m. Edited.
Abzan has a tonne of Exile options:
Declaration in Stone
Stasis Snare
Silkwrap
Angelic Purge
Fate Forgotten
Dromoka's Command
Dragonlord Kolaghan would like to have a chat with you about "They deliberately avoided printing anything that works against the graveyard right now"
August 8, 2016 9:06 a.m.
GeminiSpartanX says... #34
Argeaux- I don't know if you saw much of the Pro Tour this past weekend, but some of those GBx decks had delirium in their graveyard by turn 3. I really was looking for grave-hate as opposed to just exiling effects (which I know there are plenty of in abzan colors).
August 8, 2016 9:23 a.m.
pumpkinwavy says... #35
GeminiSpartanX It really wasn't the bg decks getting delirium that early. The temurge and other Vessel of Nascency / Grapple with the Past decks that got delirium turn 2/3, bg delirium usually hit it around turn 4/5 and played much more like midrange decks that happen to hit delirium than anything else.
August 8, 2016 10:31 a.m.
GeminiSpartanX I was AT the Pro Tour. :0)
I live in Sydney.
I found it hilarious that 
Control, which I've been playing since SOI, caned the Emrakul deck in the final.
August 9, 2016 12:40 a.m.
I have a feeling the next few weeks at my shop are going to be 40-70% control just like the finalist.
I am so glad that hard control ended up 1st place despite WotC stating they are going away from draw/go gameplay. It needs to be an option even if it's kill spells instead of counterspells.
August 9, 2016 12:44 a.m.
WotC have found it increasingly difficult to predict the meta.
August 9, 2016 12:49 a.m.
GeminiSpartanX says... #39
Argeaux- lol! Touche.
I'm still sad that Lily is so pricy right now, especially since this Lily is in no way going to keep such a high price tag after standard. I'd play more standard if I had 3 to combat all the CoCo decks.
August 9, 2016 7:12 a.m.
I'm about to be THAT person.
I cracked a Liliana, the Last Hope at prerelease then, after the buzz I heard about it on this site, I grabbed three more copies for AU$40 each. She's now $70.
August 9, 2016 8:42 a.m.
pumpkinwavy says... #41
It would be great if everyone just copied and played the control deck that won the pro tour. Lukas Blohon must be insanely skilled or insanely lucky, because that deck is bad against almost every top tier deck, with delirium being really the only deck it has game against. I'm looking forward to crushing decks in the coming weeks.
August 9, 2016 10 a.m.
Well he was very lucky, he only has 3 Lilianas and he had one to play on turn 3 pretty much all the times. Also I disagree as my Delirium deck usually wrecks B/W control, granted I pkay an Abzan version not Golgari but still.
August 9, 2016 1:02 p.m.
So are enemy lands just going to get screwed over once the pain lands rotate out or do you think the Kaladesh block will give them something?
August 9, 2016 4:30 p.m.
Whatever we get I think it Won't have subtypes plains, island, swamp, mountain, forest. Mostly they already have the slow-lands as their "dual" land that lets show-lands come in untapped.
Fast-lands with sub-types would be keen though..
August 9, 2016 5:01 p.m.
Well having the subtype isn't crucial for Standard. Most of our search cards have basic x anyways. I just want more untapped lands than what we currently have lol. In a perfect world it'd be pay to enter untapped by milling yourself, I know that's unlikely but that'd be so awesome in Standard and eternal formats
August 9, 2016 5:30 p.m. Edited.
Having subtypes is extremely important for Port Town, Choked Estuary, Foreboding Ruins, Fortified Village, and Game Trail.
Once rotation happens WotC will have to do something to improve the secondary market at card shops. These cards are actually pretty good but they have horrible support with Tangos right now. If we get basically anything that has sub-types and doesn't require basics then these land prices will triple or at least double. Players would have mana bases that don't require Evolving Wilds to play three colors and card shops would make more money.
Everybody griped about 4 color decks and I understand to a degree. Generally speaking though we've had blocks like Ravnica and RTR where we had amazing lands for 4-5 color decks and people played 3 color or less primarily. We can have excellent duals again without people just jamming 4 color good stuff.
August 9, 2016 5:39 p.m.
I forgot to mention that mill is a decent option against decks that are putting dozens of cards into their graveyard. The blue mill decks are decent right now, and needing to mill a dozen or so less cards makes them significantly stronger. Wouldn't be surprised if they started to make a resurgence in competitive.
@ Argeaux RE: Kolaghan, yes she might be great if you untap with her, but she's not exactly a card you can play or side in to many red-black decks right now. I assume her ability is an anti-delve mechanic more than anything, since she was designed long before they were working on this block.
And if you can bring yourself to sell Liliana, I would consider it... heart says no, head says, there is no reasonable way it can stay at the current price (it reached its ceiling a week or more before the PT, and whilst strong, clearly isn't as oppressive as Jace).
August 9, 2016 9:03 p.m. Edited.
somsoc I'd have to disagree about mill, because the decks that are self-milling can usually just turn that function off and hit delirium through their opponents actions and then easily take games 2 and 3. The best strategy I've found for shutting down these graveyard decks beyond just putting in a lot of exile is U/R Spells featuring Day's Undoing.
August 9, 2016 9:34 p.m.
@ Zaueski In the first game it's possible that they've already discarded too many cards to avoid being milled out. For games 2 and 3, yes, they will avoid decking themselves.. but how much does that compromise what they're doing? I don't know. Maybe it only slows them down for a few turns, or maybe it makes them a lot less effective. It seems like they rely on consistently being able to cast Emrakul in the mid-game. If it's not actually the mid-game but it's the late game then a control deck might do well.
Anyway, I agree that mill decks get a lot worse when the opponent can side against it, and if I were playing a mill deck I would have some kind of sideboard plan that attacked from a different angle, such as going heavy on counter spells and sweepers.
Days Undoing I spent a lot of time trying to make work but only found it marginally decent with Brain in a Jar. Without the ability to do it on their end step, usually refilling their hand and giving them first chance to play stuff out is curtains. Not a huge fan of it.
August 9, 2016 10:29 p.m. Edited.
I bought Liliana, the Last Hope to PLAY her.
Having cards that I want to play is one of the most important aspects of this game, for me.
Plus, I am not poor.
I play Dragonlord Kolaghan Mainboard in my Recycled Dragons deck. She's amazing in it.
It's not like RnD forgot she is around. They would be fully aware of her interaction with decks that like to fill their Graveyards.
GreenGhost says... #1
You mean Village Messenger Flip?
June 7, 2016 6:52 a.m.