Continual evolution of dual lands in Standard?
Standard forum
Posted on Jan. 29, 2013, 3:55 p.m. by Apoptosis
Dual lands have always been important for obvious reasons. How would the experts here predict the evolution of dual lands in expansions to come, i.e. what is the continuity/preservation of a specific dual land type in Standard format?
For example:Dragonskull Summit Drowned Catacomb Glacial Fortress Rootbound Crag Sunpetal Grove have been around from M10-M13. Has Wizards ever said anything about how long those cards will remain in Standard? Or is there a plan to phase them out?
Dual land cards in Innistrad, Gatecrash, and RTR are all shocklands. Do the experts think these lands will continue to persist in Standard (i.e. be reprinted) after the Innistrad block phases out or will it be a whole new format? (i.e. with the same name so that the old cards are still playable)
I'm trying to gauge how long these specific dual lands will remain in a standard format, as it will alter my interest in collecting them. If their days are numbered in Standard then I need to think hard whether to collect them all or just the ones for decks that I'm playing right now. As someone who likes to try new things, if they're not going anywhere long term then I would collect now. If their days are numbered then I would probably only get them as I need them. I just don't want to collect a bunch now that end up being unusable before I get around to trying different deck strategies.
So if I get collect the standard dual lands, how long do you think they'll last in the current standard format?
Thanks again.
Epochalyptik says... #3
The shocks won't be reprinted. They were brought back as the headline act of RTR block because of nostalgia and to give a boost to Modern, not to set a precedent for Standard.
The core lands are fair, stable, and efficient. I could easily see them being reprinted for a few core sets on that premise alone, but a lot of players are calling for a change of pace. There's one group that likes the consistent access to playable duals and thinks blocks should be the place to introduce other duals, and there's another group that thinks the reprints have gone on for enough sets. I don't really know where WotC stands, but I think they would be in favor of the playability for at least one or two more core sets. I'd also like to see them add the enemy core lands to the core sets.
January 29, 2013 4:25 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #4
Converted to a general topic because this isn't a rules question, which is what Q&A is generally reserved for.
To answer your question, though: dual lands will always be useful and will always retain value. They're useful for any format from Standard to EDH to 60-card casual and everything in between. I'd collect them now, and don't stop. Even if you personally have no immediate use for them, you never know when you suddenly might, and they're always good trade fodder.
The M10 duals haven't ever been specifically commented on by WotC, but they're solid cards that are well balanced and allow dual color options without opening up too many shenanigans, so I expect they'll stick around for a while. On the other hand, it has been a while with them, so they might decide to freshen things up a bit somehow.
The shock lands (only in RtR and Gatecrash, by the way, not in Innistrad) aren't likely to be reprinted. They're quite powerful in subtle ways, and moreover lots of people have spent a good chunk of money acquiring them, either their current printings or the original ones in the first Ravnica block. Printing them in another set would devalue the old copies too much and upset the collectors, something WotC tries to avoid. But they're played in every format they're legal in, so they're not exactly disappearing.
January 29, 2013 4:26 p.m.
Fleetfiend says... #5
I certainly do hope they will bring the Innistrad dual lands outside of Innistrad. It just doesn't make much sense to me to have half of the color combinations standard, half of them not.
January 29, 2013 4:45 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
The shocklands were brought back for 2 main reasons: the game is revisiting the plane of Ravnica, and Modern needs to be as accessible as possible to newer players. In terms of when they might be reprinted again, it probably won't be for another 5-10 years, similar to the gap between now and the first printings. Go ahead and grab them up now because they're awesome and will always be in demand, even after they rotate out of Standard.
If the core duals are printed in M14, that will be 5 years in a row, and I'm not completely confident WotC is going to do that. The fact that this summer will mark the 20th anniversary of the general release of Alpha gives me an even stronger feeling that something new and different will be done to replace that cycle. Though it could be some riff on the painlands (Adarkar Wastes , etc.) or the filter lands (Graven Cairns , etc.), I think it will most likely be something much more elegant in the vein of the current core duals.
January 29, 2013 4:45 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
Oh, duh. You're right, there's still the Future Sight stuff that hasn't been done yet. So we may have a cycle of either Grove of the Burnwillows , Horizon Canopy , Nimbus Maze , or River of Tears to look forward to. Nimbus Maze is probably the most likely one.
January 29, 2013 5:10 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #9
I think the 20th anniversary should do away with the reserved list and reprint the original duals...buuut not likely.
January 29, 2013 5:14 p.m.
To people saying that shocklands won't be reprinted again, WotC has already announced that they will be reprinted in Dragon's Maze:
"Dragon's Maze Booster Packs All Contain Nonbasic Lands
That's better! The fifteenth card in Dragon's Maze packs isn't basic land; it's nonbasic land. All ten guildgates will be showing up (with the Dragon's Maze expansion symbol), as will all ten shocklands from Return to Ravnica and Gatecrash (with their Return to Ravnica or Gatecrash symbols). They'll show up at rates about like their original rarity. There's also a mythic rare land from Dragon's Maze that will show up there sometimes!"
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/1156
January 29, 2013 5:24 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #11
When we say they won't be reprinted again (at least for a while), that definitely isn't what we're talking about. Being printed multiple times in the same expansion block doesn't count.
January 29, 2013 5:27 p.m.
Just because they're printed again doesn't mean they won't rotate out relatively soon. This is the point Rhadamanthus and others are getting at. Yes, they will be included in booster packs for gatecrash but they won't be re-issued in a future set (I think re-issued might be the best word for it). Instead they might opt for something completely different.
January 29, 2013 6:05 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #13
@jminute14: Change "not likely" to "not possible." That's an argument I don't want to start up again, though.
I personally doubt shocks will ever be printed again. WotC already used the "we're going back to Ravnica" excuse, and I don't really think they can come up with another one that's as viable without pissing off the people invested in RAV and RTR printings. Modern got the boost it needed, so Wizards will likely turn to new concepts to continue supporting both Modern and Standard.
I would dearly like to see a cycle of Nimbus Maze s because the concept is good (the land provides the color you're missing) and I just like the card. An M14 printing of such a cycle would make for a pretty ridiculous Standard with shocks still legal, so I'm interested to see what actually happens.
I also suspect that the ONS fetches will be reprinted at some point, but I don't know if WotC wants to unleash something like that on Standard. I also don't know how they would print them in a set, seeing as the last location to bring us fetches is currently being ravaged by interplanar monstrosities.
January 29, 2013 6:38 p.m.
So... If I buy the Innistrad dual lands, they will be good in standard until October, then I'll be looking for a replacement?
January 29, 2013 7:01 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
Yes, unless WotC decides to reprint both the INS and core duals in M14.
January 29, 2013 7:02 p.m.
My point in pointing out that shocks are going to be printed (I'm using the word literally) again this set is to point out the increase in supply if you're considering investing. There's also a chance they could get reprinted in Modern Masters. I think it's not likely this year, the ZEN fetches are much more likely, but if Modern Masters is a yearly thing, I may not be too long before we see them again. What we've seen from WotC recently is a concerted effort to make good lands and mana fixing more available. The key to growing the Modern format is having enough lands to support many different decks.
January 29, 2013 7:09 p.m.
IMO, if you're gonna be playing in Standard and/or Modern, it's not a bad time to buy playsets of shocks at under $10 each (when GTC settles), but it could be a bit of leap investing heavily on long-term speculation, though they'll very likely be up a bit during the new block.
January 29, 2013 7:12 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #18
Modern Masters is confirmed to not include ZEN-block cards.
Shocks will not be printed in Modern Masters. They were just printed in RTR block, and it would be idiotic of WotC to print them again immediately after.
Modern Masters is also not a yearly thing. It's a specialty set with a limited print run, and I have seen no indication that WotC intends to produce another such set.
January 29, 2013 7:14 p.m.
Can you link me to the confirmation of not printing ZEN-block cards in Modern Masters?
I realize they haven't said Modern Masters is yearly or regular, but the Commander products (specialty products with a limited print run) also weren't supposed to be a yearly thing at first.
WotC clearly wants to push Modern as the premiere eternal format, that's what I'm basing on. But of course, it is speculation.
January 29, 2013 7:27 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #20
The announcement for Modern Masters specifically says 8ED-ARB. No Zendikar block cards are eligible for printing in this set.
Also, the point of Modern Masters is entirely different from other sets. It's supposed to release a small number of key Modern cards into the market to bolster supply and player interest. It isn't meant to continually release format staples and drive the values on those cards through the floor.
January 29, 2013 7:50 p.m.
So when Innastrad goes out, 5 guilds will lose access to half of their dual land options (not counting gates). Unless M14 has no dual land options, or replaces the M13 duals with something accessible to all 10 guilds...
January 29, 2013 8:02 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #22
Yes, but the shocks are extremely flexible. Also, they wouldn't print a core set without dual lands of some kind. Something will be in M14 to fill that role. Whether or not it's a reprint of any existing duals remains to be seen.
January 29, 2013 9:02 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #23
There's not many decks that run only two colors in standard anyhow, though. And the M10 (allied-color) duals were around years before the Innistrad (enemy-colored) ones, and people got along just fine. It's not like losing the Innistrad duals will cripple enemy-colored decks, and the shock lands will all still be legal for a long while yet as well, giving access to enemy-colored fixing.
I could see either way, honestly. I'm pretty much in the same boat as Rhadamanthus - I won't be surprised if they return for another year or two, but neither will I be surprised if they do something new for the 20th anniversary. As Epochalyptik said, a Nimbus Maze cycle would be pretty awesome.
January 29, 2013 10:16 p.m.
I look for m14 to contain a reprint of the m10 duals alongside the innistrad duals but for m15 to usher in something new (a reprint of the filter lands would be great in my very biased opinion).
January 30, 2013 4:55 a.m.
pumpkinsword says... #25
I feel like they will either reprint the M13 duals or some new type of dual land that will encompass all possible guilds. They are trying to focus on multicolored decks and the mixing of colors in this block, after all. As you said, it would be sort of unfair to the guilds that don't have lands printed in the core set.
February 26, 2013 12:09 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #26
Because of all the other formats, dual lands are never going to reduce in price, on the other hand they probably won't be re-printed any time soon. So if you only play standard i'd say collect the ones you need for now, and when they cycle out, you can put them aside or trade them.
February 26, 2013 6:18 p.m.
ShadowLand says... #27
IMO-they don't really need to reprint dual lands in M14, at least not from their standpoint. RTR block will be legal for the next year after M13 and INS phase out, and we have access to all 10 guild dual lands right now. If there are specialty dual lands, my theory is that they will be the opposite to the ones that were released in M13. It seems like we are hitting some rather dark themes, so it wouldn't surprise me to see the enemy colors printed. Just my take on things though . . .
MindAblaze says... #2
Shocklands are modern staples, buy now. Core set lands have proven useful, but i could see wizards changing gears soon. The Innistrad duals are probably going away after Innistrad rotates. I'll buy them then.
January 29, 2013 4:24 p.m.