Control Players: How are we liking BFZ?
Standard forum
Posted on Sept. 19, 2015, 1:54 p.m. by ducttapedeckbox
Now that we have the full set spoiled, what are your thoughts for control? We got some nice removal and counter magic, so how are you going to put it together? What colors? What cards excite you the most?
Discuss!
ducttapedeckbox says... #3
I've been looking at Grixis as well, 2npii. However, the white "O-ring" and "super O-ring" (can't remember their actual names) are pretty good, as is the removal we already have in white. We also have to looking at green for utility in Sultai Charm and Den Protector, where the Charm is instant speed removal and DenProt will be good with/against Delve/Ingest/Processors.
Out of everything, I really like Sire of Stagnation. Like damn.
September 19, 2015 3:20 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #4
Sire seems sweet, but it's a huge target w/o protection. Seems hard to keep on the field.
Personally, I'm annoyed that there isn't any real black removal (eg, destroy target creature -- maybe with drawbacks -- at instant speed). It's all a little too specific for me. What ever happened to good and simple Doom Blade?
September 19, 2015 3:30 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #5
On the other hand, though, Stasis Snare is SWEET. Like it alot.
September 19, 2015 3:32 p.m.
I'm worried that Sire of Stagnation isn't actually that good for standard; he's my favorite card in the set, but once you've got to 6 mana your opponent has enough lands that they don't have to risk letting you draw 2 to play another. Bane of Bala Ged is starting to seem like a mush better win con since you have more control of when he triggers (the extra mana in the cost is a bummer though).
Temporary exile is fine (and works really well with processors) but I prefer to straight up kill stuff than leave them the option of destroying your enchantment and getting everything back, hence grixis! ;)
September 19, 2015 3:34 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #7
Sorry for triple post, but WotC, please reprint Nevinyrral's Disk for both standard and Modern.
September 19, 2015 3:34 p.m.
TheAnnihilator - We still have Ultimate Price and Murderous Cut! But yeah, the lack of Hero's Downfall kind of sucks, but also makes things better for everyone who doesn't want to play black!
However that card that exiles a creature and a land is freakin' awesome! 6 for an instant creature and land exile is awesome!
September 19, 2015 3:38 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #11
Aligned Hedron Network is decent for a Perilous Vault replacement, but it doesn't help against most current threats.
September 19, 2015 4:17 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #12
2npii I would honestly be happier if the card had just been 
-- Instant, Exile target creature.
September 19, 2015 5:34 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #13
As for control in general, they certainly aren't throwing us any bones right now... Though, that Spell Shrivel (linked to the MythicSpoiler page) seems good.
If I decide to play standard again, it'll be 
with the devoid counter, Celestial Flare, Stasis Snare, Dig Through Time, and End Hostilities. What is the best wincon though?
September 19, 2015 5:38 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #15
We got the Awaken counterspell which honestly is pretty good. Worst case it's a typical Standard hard counter, best case it gives you a win con. We also got a Dispel reprint, but nothing too amazing for a win condition. I think Ugin holds that seat still.
September 19, 2015 5:51 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #16
Oh! And there's Ugin's Insight which is pretty good.
September 19, 2015 6:17 p.m.
What about Part the Waterveil? Seems to me it would be a great 1-of finisher for control. Hit Awaken on a favorable board state and that's 12 damage.
September 19, 2015 6:23 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #18
I'm not sure how much I like it. It's expensive to get full use out of, and requires the board to be clear to put the 12 damage through. I think I'd rather Ugin.
September 19, 2015 6:48 p.m.
Don't forget Bone Splinters for Black removal. The low cost balances out the fact that it's Sorcery speed.
Yes, you have to sac a Creature, but it's a good trade to get rid of an early played weenie for a late played bomb.
September 19, 2015 7:19 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #22
I'm going to be playing 4c good stuff. Maybe 4c dragons. The mana is just so good that you can play anything.
September 19, 2015 10:05 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #23
What color aren't you playing JexInfinite?
September 19, 2015 11:09 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #24
ducttapedeckbox Green. Esper colours offer a strong dragon shell, but Kolaghan is pretty legit, and Radiant Flames is a definite reason to go red. Green just doesn't do it for me.
September 19, 2015 11:34 p.m.
TheAnnihilator - Instant speed creature exile for three uncolored would be insane! Titan's Presence is the compromised version :L
September 20, 2015 3:11 a.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #26
Do you have a list that I could check out, JexInfinite? I sort of like green for access to Den Protector, Sultai Charm, and Kiora, Master of the Depths. Ojutai and the white removal is very good though.
I'm not seeing the support to revamp my Mindswipe list or get a Demonic Pact list together :(
September 20, 2015 11:12 a.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #27
@2npii Okay, you got me there.
@all So, I just recently learned of this theoretical Grixis Control list going around, and I'm not entirely sold on it. it sounds powerful, but it has to play a 2 drop 1/1 for an enabler. All of its interaction is split by mana costs -- which is good since it can hit a lot with all of the spells combined, but I think you might just get the wrong spells at the wrong times and lose when you have removal (i.e., the wrong removal) in hand.
Honestly, I feel like Grixis is a bit riskier than UW right now. Though, Celestial Flare may not be the best card for the job. xD
As for best wincon (other than Newlamog), I forgot that we still have Pearl Lake Ancient. Still wins games on it's own, guys.
September 20, 2015 12:35 p.m.
TheAnnihilator - What list is that? Is the enabler Fathom Feeder? I've got a Grixis list that doesn't rely heavily on the exile zone that seems like it could be good once it's been tweaked to the new meta; Elgrixi. Esper also seems strong, but I'm less interested in playing white :P
September 20, 2015 1:19 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #30
It's heavily devoid-focused, using Horribly Awry, Transgress the Mind, Ulamog's Nullifier, Wasteland Strangler, Complete Disregard, Brutal Expulsion, etc. Now that I think about it, though, for a competitve list, Fathom Feeder probably isn't necessary.
September 20, 2015 2:57 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #31
The list you linked is actually pretty close to what I was talking about.
September 20, 2015 2:59 p.m.
Fathom Feeder isn't necessary for the exile, but with very little instant speed removal and draw in the new format, a deathtouch blocker that can draw a card on your opponent's end step, every turn if necessary, seems really good. Having played dredge in modern I've seen first hand how reluctant people can be to attack into a Stinkweed Imp! 4 of might be too many, but I think it could really do some work as a deterrent in the early game and as a draw engine later on
September 20, 2015 3:25 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #33
What do you guys think your mana bases are going to look like?
September 20, 2015 9:31 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #34
Probably around 16 fetches, some basics, and some BFZ lands.
September 20, 2015 11:13 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #38
TheAnnihilator Yup. We're going to be running roughly 24-26 lands, which means ~10 slots for fetchable lands and utility stuff. Pain lands are still decent. I'd not bother to include the wedge lands, because they're obsolete with this brilliant mana we have. Without them, your entire manabase enters untapped, which is massive amounts of tempo not lost.
September 21, 2015 12:07 a.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #39
I've been running 27 in Standard control up until now, I was thinking something like 12 fetches, 8 basics, 7 tangos, and maybe exchange 1-2 of those for a new utility land or Haven.
September 21, 2015 9:35 a.m.
Blighted Cataract seems worth including given the lack if instant speed card draw. And Blighted Fen would make for some interesting situations where your opponent know's that you can make them sacrifice a creature at any instant; could force some mistakes/ reckless play.
September 21, 2015 10:09 a.m.
True, but it doesn't tap for mana! I prefer Blighted Cataract, Fathom Feeder and Ob Nixilis Reignited for card draw as they serve other purposes as well.
September 21, 2015 12:17 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #43
Also, JexInfinite, I never include more fetches than targets. I'd at least do 13 fetches-13 targets, but I'd be way more comfortable with 12-14 with the 14 being 8 tango and 6 basics (3 on color, 2 secondary color, 1 off color).
September 21, 2015 12:18 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #45
I'm assuming it's a three color landbase, so let's take a look at Esper -- //
(leaning heavily on blue and white, with a black splash). This would be 3 Islands (the on-color, or main color), 2 Plains (the secondary color), and 1 Swamp (the off-color, or splash-color).
Does that make more sense?
September 21, 2015 2:39 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #46
If it's 2 color, the landbase becomes a little more complicated, but in this case there's enough fixing that plashing a 3rd color is almost always profitable. But, for example, my ideal 2-color landbase for U/W control would be:
8 Fetches (4x Flooded Strand, 2x Polluted Delta, 2x Windswept Heath)
4 Tango (4x Prairie Stream)
8 Basics (Depends on color weighting, prolly 5x Island, 3x Plains)
4 Gainlands (4x Tranquil Cove)
2 Utility (2x Blighted Cataract)
Total: 26
Obviously, the enemy colors are harder.
September 21, 2015 2:55 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #47
The reason to run more fetches than fetchables is because you're not going to see all your lands, and when you draw a fetch, it's usually going to get exactly the colour you need. Good mana means more fun games of magic.
September 21, 2015 9:23 p.m.
OK those ideas all make sense. Thanks for taking time to explain, both of you.
I've never played more than two colours in Control.
Splashing for a third actually makes a lot of sense.
Does all the life loss for so many fetches end up hurting you in the long run?
Also, have you ever read the article that statistically examines whether or not deck thinning is a real advantage?
September 22, 2015 8:38 a.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #49
JexInfinite Perhaps we play very different styles of control, because the kind of control I like to play regularly gets 8+ lands into play, often more (think Pearl Lake Ancient or creatureless-control). With 16 fetches and 10 or fewer fetchables, any combination of 8 lands in play and having any number of cards in hand is likely to mean that fetches can't actually get lands in the late game any more. That's a huge problem for me.
Yes, Argeaux, I've read that article -- deck thinning isn't very effective at all. The life loss can matter, but it can also be mitigated by simply not fetching at every eot. Especially if you play Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, oftentimes not fetching is a better plan (though, the tango lands entering tapped might change when people fetch -- eot fetch makes more sense now). The other thing to consider is that paying a life to stop a huge threat from resolving is often a good tradeoff regardless. In fact, I've even won games being at 1 life before stabilizing. The saying, "The only point of life that matters is the last." has some truth to it.
September 22, 2015 11:31 a.m.
I think that article is more relevant for not using fetch in mono-coloured decks tbh.
A Turn 20 win is fine for Control. In fact it's almost expected.
2npii says... #2
My favorite things are Crumble to Dust with Sire of Stagnation; destroy their lands, than draw cards when they replace them!
However outside of magical-Christmas-land, Fathom Feeder is instant speed draw that can also trade with a creature if necessary (also Blighted Cataract for card instant card draw), the counters that exile (Horribly Awry and Spell Crumple if I remember correctly) and Transgress the Mind seem awesome and help with Ulamog's Nullifier (eg Mystic Snake eldrazi). Brutal Expulsion is an awesome 2for1. Everything in the set is making me think Grixis control... Everything except the lack of instant speed removal that is...
September 19, 2015 3:15 p.m.