Control's new direction with Khans?
Standard forum
Posted on Sept. 23, 2014, 9:57 p.m. by kmcree
Alright, so I'm trying to decide which direction to take with control now that Khans is here and RTR is rotating. I'm considering 2 paths: American and BUG. I've been playing American, and I love it. But its losing Sphinx's Rev, D-Sphere, Jace, and Verdict.
Pros of BUG: I think the combination of Courser of Kruphix and Kiora could generate some pretty serious mana and card advantage. Throw in Caryatid, and this deck seems pretty strong against aggro.
Cons: I'm concerned about the finisher. BUG doesn't have Elspeth, so I'd probably be relying on Garruk? Also, black removal in Khans sees pretty bad. Outside of hero's downfall, the well seems pretty dry.
Pros of American: I have access to Elspeth, possibly the best finisher control has at the moment. Also, with Anger of the Gods, I've got a pretty solid sweeper. I think white gives me access to decent removal.
Cons: I'm just a little concerned with card draw and board advantage. With Jace leaving, I''m not sure how to replace him.
Anyways, if anyone has any input I'd greatly appreciate it. I definitely want to play control, and will probably end up going in one of these 2 directions.
Thanks!
Nigeltastic says... #3
I personally am all in on Sultai control. My list is creatureless, but generates card advantage through Sultai Ascendancy , which is criminally underrated currently. The win condition is Villainous Wealth , and if that doesn't suit one's fancy, Empty the Pits or Garruk, Apex Predator should do it. Murderous Cut is actually pretty insane removal, and Extinguish All Hope is a reasonable sweeper, and Drown in Sorrow will serve a similar purpose to Anger of the Gods .
September 23, 2014 10:07 p.m.
Yeah I forgot to mention Ashiok. I definitely think he (she?) has a lot of potential. I think the bottom line is it comes down to whether I want to play "pure control" with no board presence (American), or more of a board presence oriented control with stuff like Courser, Ashiok, Caryatid, and Kiora (BUG).
September 23, 2014 10:09 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #5
"Pure control" is always so much fun though, especially when you have no creatures.
September 23, 2014 10:11 p.m.
That's my problem! Haha. After playing "pure" American control this last season, I'm having a hard time walking away.
September 23, 2014 10:13 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #7
I think the Jeskai build will have a lot easier time wiping the field, but the Sultai one will have great spot removal.
September 23, 2014 10:18 p.m.
Are you guys forgetting about End Hostilities in white?
September 23, 2014 10:43 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #9
No, which is why I said Jeskai will be wiping the field better.
September 23, 2014 10:47 p.m.
Scorch1313 says... #10
don't need a removal spell if you Thoughtseize a card out of their hand, something to consider
September 23, 2014 10:53 p.m.
Tip: Play Prognostic Sphinx
. He is control's new best friend.
The days of Draw-Go control are dead now that we don't have a mana sink draw spell and creatures continue to get stronger and stronger. Proggy proved himself as a massive threat and a great security blanket at the Block Constructed PT and that is likely to carry over into the new Standard season as well.
September 23, 2014 11:01 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #12
I agree. Sphinx is going to be control's new creature finisher of choice. It's seriously hard to kill unless you have Phyrexian Revoker or a counterspell.
September 23, 2014 11:13 p.m.
You guys really think Prognostic Sphinx is good enough to replace AEtherling ? I'm just not convinced yet. I was hoping for something in Khans, but I don't see much.
September 23, 2014 11:34 p.m.
Also, Sphinx is available in either deck. That doesn't help my decision! haha
September 23, 2014 11:36 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #15
I played Sphinx a couple weeks ago in my "pure" control list, and he was a pain. To permanently remove him, I had to Pithing Needle him, bounce him, then counter him on the re-entry.
September 23, 2014 11:36 p.m.
Interesting. Is there enough card draw in this format to keep feeding him though?
September 23, 2014 11:40 p.m.
Is the new Jace playable at all? I'm leaning towards no, since he doesn't provide any card advantage, just kind of fixes your draws.
September 23, 2014 11:42 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #18
Dictate of Kruphix exists.
Jace does fine at what he does. If your opponent lets him sits there, he's going to completely screw them. I got rid of all the Jaces I saw asap.
September 23, 2014 11:44 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #19
I think he's best against control decks though.
September 23, 2014 11:44 p.m.
Sooo... what do I do? haha
I'm leaning more towards American just cuz the "pure control" is more my style, but I think BUG might be stronger. Thoughtseize is another huge factor I hadn't really considered.
I should mention, budget isn't an issue. I own most of the cards for either deck.
September 24, 2014 12:35 a.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #21
You should probably brew up some lists and test their strengths and weaknesses.
I'm just going to reiterate that Sultai really has no boardwipe withe the exception of AEtherize (I think) and Drown in Sorrow out of the sideboard. But they do have a lot of spot removal, like Hero's Downfall , Bile Blight , Sultai Charm and Murderous Cut .
Meanwhile, Jeskai has Anger of the Gods and End Hostilities to control the board. Their spot removal will consist of things like Suspension Field , Banishing Light , and Lightning Strike , which can be a little less powerful with all the enchantment hate floating around. Jeskai Charm can also do some work either as removal or burn.
Both have access to counterspells.
Both have access to card draw, but Sutai gets the edge because it can also run Sultai Charm , Read the Bones , and Sign in Blood .
With Elspeth, Sun's Champion , Jeskai arguably has the best wincon, but Prognostic Sphinx , Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker , Stormbreath Dragon , Garruk, Apex Predator , Kiora, the Crashing Wave , and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver are all well-placed as well.
September 24, 2014 1:03 a.m.
Alright, I think I'm going to go Jeskai for now, since that's what I've been playing. It'll take the least amount of effort to put together. I'll probably play around some with Sultai too tho.
Thanks for the ideas!
September 24, 2014 1:17 a.m.
Nigeltastic says... #23
Extinguish All Hope is a good boardwipe. Dig Through Time is a good 2 of in a Sultai list, and Villainous Wealth is crazier than people realize, I promise. Also, you have a ton of discard if that suits you between Thoughtseize and Despise , and unmatched draw fixing with Sultai Ascendancy .
September 24, 2014 1:19 a.m.
reverendvile777 says... #24
D&D is the control list I am working on. Right now everyone is playing Rabblemaster decks and I'm trying to capitalize on all the rabble deck variants floating around.
September 24, 2014 1:29 a.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #25
A 6-mana partial boardwipe isn't really that great, even if there aren't a lot of enchantment creatures being played.
September 24, 2014 1:38 a.m.
Yeah, Extinguish All Hope doesn't really feel playable to me in all honesty. I'd much rather have End Hostilities or Anger of the Gods .
September 24, 2014 1:42 a.m.
Nigeltastic says... #27
I'm uncertain how Extinguish is worse than Anger, but to each their own. I'm not entirely sure that 1 mana is that big of a difference, and the spot removal in black should mop up any enchantment creatures that are being played, of which there are maybe 2-3.
September 24, 2014 2:23 a.m.
Um, Anger costs 3 mana, Extinguish costs 6. There's a huge difference there.
September 24, 2014 2:43 a.m.
Jimhawk has it right, the days of draw-go are over. Without a 4 mana Uncounterable wrath and sphinx rev, there's no way you'll win.
I'm liking bug for control or even BW. It will be a more grindy/tempo type build.
September 24, 2014 7:17 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #30
Run Grixis. U have 8 fetches to fix your mana, access to counters, Rabble Master, Sarkhan, Ashiok, Anger of the Gods+Drown In Sorrow, Downfalls, Seizes, RtB & SiB.
September 24, 2014 1:03 p.m.
Mardu, forget about blue. You actually dont need it with burn/spot removal, sweepers and O-ring effects being done best by b/r/w. And black also gives you card draw, and loads of options for lifegain by whip, butcher. Finishers in rabblemaster, sarkan, elspeth, chandra and the butcher.
September 24, 2014 4:02 p.m.
On Jeskai: Card draw shouldn't be that big of an issue. Keranos, God of Storms (biggest incentive to go RUW outside of Elspeth), Jace's Ingenuity , Treasure Cruise , Dig Through Time , Steam Augury , Divination give you solid options. Not having access to Sphinx's Revelation is obviously going to be a different world, but I think that'll be the case with both clans.
I see merit in going either direction, and I hope one of them emerges as a legitimate T1 deck.
September 24, 2014 6:47 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #33
Ooh, I can't believe I actually forgot about Keranos.
September 24, 2014 6:54 p.m.
I think Mardu is a solid choice for a more midrange build, but I don't think it's right for "pure control".
Keranos is an absolute all star. I've been using him in standard, and even modern. He and Elspeth are my too biggest reasons for leaning towards American.
GoldGhost012 says... #2
Do neither, play Azban. ;)
In Sultai, you also have access to Murderous Cut , which should work nicely in a control build. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is pretty good as a finisher or just a way to interact more with your opponent.
September 23, 2014 10:01 p.m.