Deathmist raptor or den protector hit
Standard forum
Posted on June 13, 2015, 3:47 a.m. by IndepenentMeta
Omg I was playing at my locals today and I've played this guy a few times. It goes ok then once he started dropping death mist raptor it started getting fucking heavy somehow this guy always had the mana to manifest and morph creatures at will which would cause death mist grave yard ability to trigger. In short words this shit is broken... Reasons why I think it should be banned are
It's an infinite. In the game of magic there is no restriction list nothing gets hit to 1 or 2 or even 3. So this would allow for you to run 4x copys of it. So basically if one gets path to exile no worries Chet I got 3 more...
Very easy triggers. It's ability triggers Wenever a monster gets flipped face up wen I say this I didnt think much of it. Until I ran into a few test rounds with one of my friends playing it. Basically if an opponent have five mana up its gonna cost you. A plus trigger for den protector plus for the raptor, then an easy chum block,
This is also trigger related. If the right amount of mana is up like let's say 5 for the o den protector. It could spell out minus. Oppoenent sets down fd creature. Waste one card from hand try to hit the face down morph o flip it face up grab my raptor grand a trap...
Then it's splashed into one of the easiest commands in the game dromokas command. Dromoka makes it a 4/4 death touch easily able to block and attack for near quarter hits. This shouldn't be allowed I'm the game.
I'm saying it needs the banned hammer quick. It's in no form or shape "balanced". Having answers such as utter end for the card is not a valid excuse. Seeing that you could run multiple copies aside from the other threats the deck brings. Having a small answer like utter end isn't good enough. One survives and it's he'll on wheels..
Not a standard player but I fail to see how these two cards constitute a combo.
June 13, 2015 4:44 a.m.
Anger of the Gods.
Burn Away.
Pharika, God of Affliction.
Tormod's Crypt.
Cranial Archive.
And many more.
The options to interact with Deathmist Raptor and Den Protector exist. Use them.
June 13, 2015 5 a.m.
BlueEyesRedMage says... #5
This is no degenerate combo, this is efficient synergy Meta. Boogey Raptor and Maternal witness not only have some sick nickname potential but they constitute an avenue of deck building that was barely possible before DTK came out; Morph being not only good in standard but RELEVANT to the top tables. That's amazing! But they're not impossible to beat, not by a long shot. You want broken and hard to combat? Try Necropotence, Balance, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, goddamn Channel. Boogie and Maternal aren't even close dude.
Abzan Charm deals with raptors and flipped protectors outright, so does Silence the Believers and a handful of other removal spells in standard.
June 13, 2015 5:01 a.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #6
Forgot about the Tormod's Crypt I need to get a hold of some.
June 13, 2015 6:13 a.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #7
Pharika, God of Affliction isn't that good of an answer because in some decks they don't have anyway of killing or skipping combat with the 1/1 death touch token then it's the same threat all over again but in the shape of a snake. That card can go bad.
June 13, 2015 6:19 a.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #8
That's one thing I love about the magic player base. They think with a look to what was more broken back then it answers questions right now.... It doesn't... Just because jace was super broken at the time doesn't mean this card isn't. There's plenty of mechanics I've ran into in this past set where u can actually see where the creators just decided to say you know what fuck it let's make this interaction the worst in the game. that's what I believe you have here.
There's no limit list in magic like there is in yugioh....In yugioh there's a limit to the number of copies you can run in a deck. So let's say for example there is a limit of 2x deathist raptor per game I utter end one and then there's the other live one in the deck. Much more balanced because I know for a fact I got rid of the number of deathist in your deck. Rather then trying to hit all four. Because even thou there is answers there's also other threats to the board
June 13, 2015 6:26 a.m.
There is a limit list. It's 4. You've been given relevant answers to how to beat these cards, and I've gone through your reasoning and proved out faults. If you're going to come and make claims like these, at least have the common decency to reply back to people instead of making overarching statements ignoring most of the points made to you.
June 13, 2015 6:33 a.m.
Why do you love it if you disagree with it?
Or are you just saying that to be sarcastic and condescending to Magic players as a whole? Cause that's what it sounds like you're doing...
Also you ignored the part of that post where they explained that decks running Jace and SFM were literally impossible to beat by decks not running those cards. Therefore every deck was running those cards, and it was making the format stale.
Is every deck in the format right now running Deathmist Raptor and Den Protector? No. Is it impossible to beat a deck running those two cards if you are not running them yourself? No.
Also in my experience Magic players tend to dislike restrictions that hamper their deckbuilding. Especially when those restrictions are arbitrarily made up by the makers of the game without clear evidence that they need to be in place (like players getting to see that two cards are unfairly dominating the format).
June 13, 2015 6:42 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
Why is this in Standard Deck Help? Why is it mentioning Path to Exile? What format is this even about?
June 13, 2015 8:28 a.m.
Viral_Assassin says... #12
Isn't this the guy that just always trolls or something? every post Ive read with this user in it is usually all over the place and he's always getting the same responses back to him about being troll, etc. Should I just be ignoring this?
June 13, 2015 9:20 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #13
If you have nothing constructive to add to the conversation, don't post anything.
June 13, 2015 9:27 a.m.
Servo_Token says... #14
In all legitimacy, I pretty much 85% agree with OP this time. Denmist Protractor is a super efficient combo in standard, it's dominating the format, random renegade decks splash for it like Mono Red and BW, and it's neigh impossible to stop efficiently without like 10 for 1'ing yourself.
I'm going to disagree that the combo is ban-worthy, as there's nothing inherently wrong with the combo, I just think that it's a bit too efficient for the current meta wherein all other cards are absolute shite. Like, 'Hey, I just got my fourth land drop on turn 5! I guess i'll play Stormbreath Dragon?' That's essentially what all other decks are doing right now, whereas this combo lets you do something with your mana that is proactive and impactful every turn of the game sans turn one. And once the engine gets going, there just isn't enough in the format to not get out-attritioned most of the time.
Now, of course this is all out of my perspective, and there are answers for the engine. Anger of the Gods and Perilous Vault come to mind as the main contenders. It's just very rough, even with these cards, to do anything about the major attrition war that's going on in front of you. I'm certainly not a fan of the engine, and can't wait until some more powerful spells or interactions come along to take this one's place.
Now, as to why this engine isn't actually ban-worthy.
-It isn't degenerate. Sure, it's efficient, it is difficult to beat because of the high level of synergy that the engine and deck offers, but it does not win the game on the spot, nor does it not have any weak points.
-While it is popular, you don't have to play with it. This isn't Caw-blade. There are ways to beat this deck while taking down a tournament. This means that it's just something that appeals to the attrition players of the world, of which there are many. It's no more popular than black devotion was last year, which is fine.
-It is stoppable. As previously mentioned, Anger of the Gods and Perilous Vault are things that do things.
So yeah, while I personally hate this engine and wish nothing more than to watch as all copies of Deathmist Raptor burn on a pyre, I'm going to accept that it's just part of the game, and the game doesn't need to 100% appeal to me. I am a part of the game, the game is not a part of me, therefore the game does not always need to suit strictly my needs. While this engine is off making one of the worst standard formats ever, i'm just here casting some Splinter Twins waiting out the shitstorm.
June 13, 2015 9:39 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #15
IndepenentMeta cards like Anger of the Gods, Abzan Charm and Perilous Vault whoop up on the Raptor and his buddy. Also if you can pressure with flyers and not waste removal on the Raptors you typically win.
Wizards almost never ban things in Standard. We just have to adapt and innovate, that's a good thing. They do a lot of testing and Standard is truly balanced.
June 13, 2015 9:47 a.m.
I'm still failing to see the combo here. You play Den Protector face-down and then flip him for megamorph, Deathmist Raptor comes back to the battlefield, and you get another card from your yard to your hand... Then what? You have a 3/2 with evasion and 3/3 DT that might be face down. Where am I supposed to go from here?
June 13, 2015 10:02 a.m.
Servo_Token says... #17
All copies of Deathmist Raptor trigger, so later on you can get 2-4 copies of the raptor on each flip. It's endless if you bring back a Den Protector with your Den Protector. It's not by any means a traditional combo, but it's highly attrition based, basically giving you a ton of extra creatures every time you do what your deck was trying to do anyway. That on top of things like Courser of Kruphix gaining a ton of incremental value and the value train what is Siege Rhino, and you have a powerful combo-wombo.
June 13, 2015 10:09 a.m.
awphutt, there have been about 20 cards banned from standard-JTMS, Stoneforge Mystic, Amulet of Quoz, Ancient Den, Arcbound Ravager, Balance, Black Vise, Channel, Darksteel Citadel, Disciple of the Vault, Dream Halls, Earthcraft, Fluctuator, Great Furnace, Ivory Tower, Jeweled Bird, Land Tax, Lotus Petal, Memory Jar (the only card to have ever been banned before release), Mind Over Matter, Mind Twist, Rebirth, Recurring Nightmare, Seat of the Synod, Skullclamp, Strip Mine, Tempest Efreet, Time Spiral, Timmerian Fiends, Tree of Tales, Windfall, Vault of Whispers, Zuran Orb. Deathmist Raptor is nowhere near almost any of these cards. You're right on everything though, just thought I might get some trivia up in here.
June 13, 2015 10:11 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #19
The difference between those cards being that they're pretty broken by themselves, whereas the Raptor/Protector combo needs two cards.
June 13, 2015 10:39 a.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #20
Artifact land is pretty broken by themselves without other cards?
June 13, 2015 10:57 a.m.
Alright, first of all, there are plenty of answers to the deahtmist raptor and den protector "combo". If you don't want to lose to that, and it's hugely prevalent in your shop, run Mardu. You've got Anger of the Gods, Silence the Believers, Crackling Doom (for esper matchup). And you've got fliers and burn to close the game.
There are ways to beat it. If you think it should be banned, you are just being lazy and haven't actually tried to beat it. You just want to continue playing the deck you want to play, while having the cards that beat you banned.
And if you want card draw and counters, you can homebrew a grixis list.
June 13, 2015 10:58 a.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #22
That's the only deck in my shop I haven't beaten once. The lead it can be u is pretty annoying. N just because there are answers for the card doesn't make it the most balanced card in the format. Due to the fact that you don't always have the answers on the right time. And sometimes you waste answers on other possible board threats. Leaving deathmist rapper unchecked. Me personally I think if one combo is bad enough it deserves a banning deathmist is just that.
June 13, 2015 11:12 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #23
You can't assume that you'll always have an answer for everything. That's simply not a reality of the game, nor should it be. Disparity of responses and flexibility is a factor in the game's balance as long as it is managed strategically. And there are answers for this interaction.
And if you're "wasting" answers on other things, then that should be an indication that your deck is deficient in its ability to answer threats or that you're deficient in your ability to assess threats. It's not automatically a fault of the game's design.
Therefore, your current argument amounts to "I haven't beaten it and it's annoying." That's not a legitimate reason to actually ban something. It is a reason to want something banned, but it betrays a narrow understanding of how the game works.
June 13, 2015 11:18 a.m.
About a year ago, I played in my first Modern tournament. Hear me out, it has a valid point in this conversation. I played a 
/
speedy creature deck featuring Sarkhan Vol, Garruk Wildspeaker, and a lot of cheap, efficient that comboed really well together. The two decks I got to play against were what I call the wuss-deck featuring Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Pestermites. If you know the deck, basically with Kiki-Jiki on the board, you have one of the Pestermites on the board, copy it, which untaps Kiki-Jiki, which creates another Pestermite...ad naseum. I was a newbie to Modern, so I thought my deck, which was pretty fast, had some merit. I nearly beat both of these decks with my home brew, but ultimately I was just so pissed that I didn't play Modern for a year. I recently built another one, a homebrew that has been in in one tourney and only got to play in one match there, but that match was a valid match in Boros Burn. It was tight, but me and my Goblins beat and overwhelmed their burn and I won. Did I feel vindicated? Yeah. To me, it gave me a little confidence to think I might have a little work to do, yes, but it is working.
Now do you see why it is valid? It is about redemption. If that deck is beating you time and time again, then tweak your deck or your sideboard. Change a card or three to beat this matchup, if that is the only one you are having trouble with. Chances are once you tweak the deck, playtest it out and see how it runs, you will find out that it may have been the thing between the cards and the table that was causing your losses (and yes, I mean the player). Self-evaluation and reflection on your faults, tendencies, and habits can help you, especially if you learn to bluff your foe, much like they do in poker. I can't tell you how many times I have held something in my hand, a land say for example, playing 
and a few mana untapped, and bluffed a foe for a turn or two to draw what I needed to end the game.
Just have patience. It will come. And when it does, you will feel all the more satisfying for your victory.
June 13, 2015 11:43 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #25
IndepenentMeta I'd just like to touch on one thing:
Good does NOT equal banworthy. Good just means good.
Just because a few decks have issues with Denmist doesn't mean that there aren't many answers in other colors that are being mainboarded that easily deal with this synergy.
Anger of the Gods among other things deal with them in one go but similarly, simply killing the Den Protector before it can flip will prevent this from happening. (Unless they play it and immediately flip it but that's fairly rare since they want to flip it on your turn so they can attack with the Deathmist Raptor.)
June 13, 2015 11:44 a.m.
HAHAHAHAHAHA.... it should be banned because your not always gonna have the answer at the right time....... hahahahahahaha
In that case we should ban every card in magic, because there's no guarantee your gonna have the right answer at the right time for anything.
Seriously, you've embarrassed your enough, before you respond again you should actually look into what your talking about. There are plenty of current decks that see play on the pro circuit that can deal with it, maybe you should look to see what they're doing to stop them because it's obviously not an issue for them. Every time you claim this should be banned your simply showing off your lack of magic knowledge/intelligence. In absolutely no way do these cards meet Wizards criteria for banning. So your only options are 1.) listen to all the different things people have been telling you and try to adjust and adapt to deal with the things you face or 2.) quit playing magic, because these cards aren't going anywhere until they rotate in almost 2 years.
June 13, 2015 11:45 a.m.
@Ohthenoises It's not very easy to kill a morph creature before they can flip it because typically they have the mana available to flip it after they play it face down. So when you try to kill their facedown Den Protector they simply pay the megamorph cost in response, returning any raptors to the battlefield and another card to their hand.
But if your opponent ever slips up and doesn't have mana available, then yes... kill the morph. It just typically an opportunity that doesn't present itself too often.
June 13, 2015 11:53 a.m.
Named_Tawyny No card has ever been banned because it's good in a vacuum. Artifact lands were banned because of Affinity. Stoneforge Mystic was banned because it could tutor out Sword of Feast and Famine and Bonehoard. Memory Jar was banned because it allowed turn 1 combo decks to be MORE efficient.
June 13, 2015 12:30 p.m.
My bad, didn't see Watermelon's comment and thought you were replying sarcastically to me.
June 13, 2015 12:49 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #34
Epochalyptik very good counter arguement on your behalf. I mean your right we can't always have the answers for everything. I think this is just a matter of improving the side deck and tweaking the deck enough to adapt to the gw match up. I already have it running Oppressive Rays for the aggro match ups. Just need to find a way to deal wit mr perfect... Dromoka's Command really fucks with my deck cause I run like 4x enchantments so Banishing Light n Silkwrap don't work as well I was wondering if there was any removal that wont leave an enchantment behind.
June 13, 2015 1:17 p.m.
Most of what needs to be said has been said, so I'm just going to add one thing and say my peace:
If Pack Rat was not bannable; If Mutavault was not bannable; If Sphinx's Revelation was not bannable; If Supreme Verdict was not bannable; If Master of Waves was not bannable; If Siege Rhino and Dragonlord Ojutai and Courser of Kruphix and Mastery of the Unseen and Dig Through Time and Jeskai Ascendancy and Seeker of the Way and Stormbreath Dragon are not bannable...
If Snapcaster Mage wasn't bannable or if Thragtusk and Restoration Angel weren't bannable...And if Unburial Rites and Craterhoof Behemoth and Angel of Serenity and such weren't bannable...Dude, if all of aristocrats with Boros Reckoner and Falkenrath Aristocrat and Lingering Souls were not to be banned...If nothing is to be said about Thundermaw Hellkite or Liliana of the Veil or Garruk, Primal Hunter or Jace, Architect of Thought or Huntmaster of the Fells Flip...
If none of the above cards or any of the other good/"broken" cards were not banned in standard, then there is no reason why Deathmist Raptor and Den Protector should be banned. Every color gets their powerful toys. I could argue the BSness of Stormbreath Dragon and Dragonlord Ojutai and Butcher of the Horde and that asshole Lifebane Zombie and even freaking Ensoul Artifact all I want, but at the end of the day it's just the same power level to another mage. That is all.
June 13, 2015 1:19 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #36
abenz419 r you retarded or something? Or did they not teach you what broken looks like on the board? Saying shit like that is the typical magic answer to everything. O my god you want something on the banned list because it's killing some decks, why not just ban everything. You know by the standards of a good player like myself that arguement is a bit brain dead. No one should say stupid shit like that... Just shows you how narrow minded us could b
June 13, 2015 1:24 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #38
idk who it was that said "some decks don't have the answer to it but other decks do". Basically that's the making of a banning in most tcg's. If you have to switch what your playing just so you can beat one deck. That deck is broken.
June 13, 2015 1:28 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #39
I don't understand what is going on here.
You want to know what the last cards banned in Standard were? Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic in 2011. Deathmist Raptor and Den Protector are not even remotely close to being that power level in Standard (or any other format for that matter) and they are certainly not oppressive. The mere suggestion that they should be banned is frankly embarrassing.
There are plenty of decks in Standard that can play through the Abzan Megamorph package, namely RG Devotion. Your logic is flawed and your arguments as to whyn things need to be snap banned frequently come across as you're simply misplaying your deck, you're playing a pile or you just got wrecked by a better player and you think the deck they are playing is why they won. You also provide zero empirical evidence to support your claims.
Even though your posts have provided me with much amusement, I would ask that you think your posts through a little more before clicking the "Post" button. Your posts are very quickly becoming less and less amusing and exponentially more irritating. I will note that it appears your grammar has improved a bit though, thanks for that.
June 13, 2015 1:58 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #40
@IndepenentMeta: Civility is a two-way street. I'm done tolerating bullshit from other members who harass you, but I'm not going to entertain the same comments from you. If you don't like what someone has to say, state that respectfully or ignore them.
June 13, 2015 2:19 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #41
Also, I'll let you in on a "secret." The reason the meta consists of numerous decks is that each deck has good and bad matchups. If one deck was dominant, it would be the only one anyone ever played. The reality is that no one deck will have a sure answer for every other deck. Some decks naturally beat others.
You can mitigate this to some extent by adapting your deck to be more flexible and resilient (see the articles on my profile page). But if you expect that your deck will definitely answer or beat any other deck without you adapting to the meta, then you don't understand the theory of the game and you deserve to lose for it.
June 13, 2015 2:31 p.m.
really.... and I'm the one that needs to tone it down???
No, I'm not retarded, lol. And if you read what I actually posted you'd see that it wasn't a suggestion I was making and simply me making fun of you for saying that Deathmist Raptor and Den Protector should be banned because you can't always have the right answer at the right time. I mean the only way your point holds any weight is if the same argument holds true for every card that can't be answered immediately. Obviously that's stupid, so my comment was simply to further point out how ridiculous you sound. Your just too busy trying to argue ridiculous points to actually realize what's being said.
Also based on this paragraph alone..."I'm saying it needs the banned hammer quick. It's in no form or shape "balanced". Having answers such as utter end for the card is not a valid excuse. Seeing that you could run multiple copies aside from the other threats the deck brings. Having a small answer like utter end isn't good enough. One survives and it's he'll on wheels".... I wouldn't call yourself a good player. Your argument that having something like Utter End isn't enough because they can run multiple copies along with other threats is laughable along with everything else you've said. Not only are you capable of running multiple copies of Utter End but you can also run multiple copies of other answers as well. You have to build your deck to compete against the current meta. Refusing to adjust and adapt your deck does not make another deck (or card combo) broken, it simply makes you ignorant to change. Now before you try to argue this some more, go through and actually read all of the comments that have been made. There is a reason every single person has told you that your wrong and it's ridiculous to think they require a ban. HINT it's not because we're trolling you.
June 13, 2015 2:45 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #43
@abenz419 yeah I could more less see where your coming from. my son had to trade off my utter end in order to get some of the stuff I traded out from him... And I only have 2x utter end.. But yeah I think imma start maiming 3 n siding the fourth one. Imma need to get at least 3 more utter ends.
June 13, 2015 3:19 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #44
fluffybunnypants Yeah I was speaking from experience of the games I've played with WB mid range. Its been kinda tough but I can't say I didn't have the deck down on the second game. I kept playing remove spells like Defeat, Ultimate Price, Silkwrap, Banishing Light, Utter End and it was hurting his hand. But some how I couldn't get to my Mardu Strike Leader fast enough. So he topped deck an ugin and closed out the game. You guys are prolly right I think the match up would be more about siding correctly and make the build a big more controlish. How many weeks until theros gets rotated... And I must say right now in orgins I just hope there's a Oppressive Rays reprint as I love that card to death.
June 13, 2015 3:28 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #45
We re trying to keep conversions civil on both sides
June 13, 2015 3:29 p.m.
JA14732 Good to know, I had only heard about Jace and Mystic because they're the most recent I guess.
IndependentMeta Okay, so you're play WB midrange, and that's clearly a brew. Has it not occurred to you that maybe the deck just isn't competitive for this standard format? I mean, brewing's great, I do it a lot, and it can be rough to admit something you've put work into isn't good enough, but maybe the colours just don't have access to the cards necessary to be competitive.
June 13, 2015 4:51 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #47
Like I've said before I've beaten every deck with that deck expect Deathmist Raptor + Den Protector
June 13, 2015 8:04 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #48
And? That doesn't entitle you to beat it. That doesn't mean your deck is good enough to beat it.
June 13, 2015 8:10 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #49
Well no but this guy is saying that my deck type isn't even in the competitive range which I find to be not true at all I mean if that's the only deck I haven't beaten then that should tell u it's competitive.
June 13, 2015 8:51 p.m.
Izu_Korasu says... #50
I would argue that some of the dragons (like Dragonlord Ojutai who is both unbalanced and highly synergistic with control) are more overpowering then a morph based Flamewake Phoenix. Sure its a pain to deal with, but if thats the biggest threat my opponent has, my sideboard and I are okay with it. (same sideboard cards for sultai negate deathmist and den protector's effectiveness)
In most cases i see Deathmist Raptor used as a stall tactic until actual threats hit the board. (or until whisperwood does)
awphutt says... #2
Okay, this is a pretty valid concern, in that these cards are very powerful in the current standard meta game. But, these cards aren't banworthy, and there are a few reasons why. Mainly, on of the current best decks in standard is Esper Dragons. Without the Den Protector Deathmist Raptor combo, Esper gets infinitely better and becomes easily the best. But let's go through your reasoning as to why it should be banned.
(1): It's only infinite while you still have stuff to unmorph. You kill their stuff before it has mana open, you counter in before it hits the board. Remember, the card is still just a 3/3. It's not dealing huge amounts of damage.
(2): It is an easy trigger to get off, I agree. But again, you disrupt their early game, with discard and removal, and it's rough for them to get off the ground. I don't know the specifics of the deck, but you've got to realise that they do need to get to 5 mana, and the likelihood of them having very much removal isn't great, since they need to pad there deck out with creatures. Your stuff is sticking.
(3): Play around it. You seem to be playing the sort of 1 for 1 removal game here, and honestly that doesn't cut it in the current standard metagame, it's just not good enough anymore.
(4): Kill it. It's back to a 3/3.
A little bit of history, to my knowledge there have only ever been 2 cards banned in Standard, that is Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic. They were in a deck during standard that was the best deck, without arguement. It was dominating the meta, so WoTC banned it to have a varied meta. These cards aren't nearly powerful enough for that.
June 13, 2015 4:04 a.m.