Does Sultai midrange decks top 8?
Standard forum
Posted on Oct. 10, 2014, 2:37 a.m. by VegetaWins_015
Does the deck right now have what it takes to win or compete to have close matches in current standard?
Sultai midrange? Hmm... I'm not sold. I don't think sultai's weak by any means, especially as a control build, but midrange? Nah... I think Both Abzan and Mardu have a stronger suit for that type of build. Sultai lacks the type of creatures that just scream midrange goodness. Think Butcher of the Horde , Siege Rhino , Surrak Dragonclaw , etc.
October 10, 2014 3:16 a.m.
Ummm, TheDevicer, sultai has access to Sylvan Caryatid , Courser of Kruphix , Polukranos, World Eater , Prognostic Sphinx , Reaper of the Wilds , Kiora, the Crashing Wave , Nissa, Worldwaker , Prophet of Kruphix and Rakshasa Deathdealer . Along will all of the black removal, blue counterspells, and tons of card draw. That's all stuff just off the top of my head and it all seems like a really good start to a midrange deck lol.
October 10, 2014 3:59 a.m.
Well when you cover 3/5ths of the color wheel, yeah you'll have access to a lot of the cards in the format, sure. You seem to be under the impression that I don't think there's any reason to play Sultai this way. Like I said, I don't think the clan is weak. I simply feel it's situated to be a fairly defensive and grindy while the other clans have more outright explosive power and ways to push damage through.
October 10, 2014 4:05 a.m.
I'm just saying grindy does not equal control. Being in black gives it access to some of the best removal in standard Bile Blight
, Drown in Sorrow
, Hero's Downfall
, and Murderous Cut
and being in blue gives it access to counterspells like Dissolve
and Dissipate
along with all the draw power that blue has to offer in Divination
, Jace's Ingenuity
, Dig Through Time
, and Treasure Cruise
. I honestly don't feel like Siege Rhino
, Butcher of the Horde
, etc. give the other clans any real advantage over Sultai. Everything you named Sultai midrange can deal with fairly easily. It has everything you want in a midrange deck... large cost effective creatures, ways to deal with aggro to safely get to the midgame, and tons of tempo advantage in removal, counters, and card draw. Sultai midrange has everything that Abzan and Mardu midrange decks have and probably an even better late game.
I just think the reason Abzan and Mardu jump out as midrange decks is because it's not uncommon for Sultai (BUG) to show up as a control list in other formats. Plus with shiny new things like Siege Rhino and Butcher of the Horde (which both scream midrange) people immediately jump to those colors because that's your only option if you want to play either of those cards. Something I haven't heard people talk about is Sagu Mauler in a sultai deck (it seems like people are more concerned with morphing Rattleclaw Mystic into it). It fits in nicely alongside Polukranos, World Eater , Reaper of the Wilds , and Prognostic Sphinx though. A creature base that consist of the Reaper, the Sphinx, and the Mauler would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for other midrange deck to deal with since it makes other midrange decks unable to interact with your board without something like End Hostilities .
October 10, 2014 7:33 a.m.
The problem with sultai midrange is that it beats other migrange decks but loses to aggro and control pretty badly. It would have to play a lot like a control deck most of the time so why not just go control?
October 10, 2014 8:32 a.m.
Well then, sorry to disappoint but I don't have an actual list put together. As impressive as Sultai midrange is I was playing a lot of B/G and eventually B/G/W pre-rotation so I originally planned to play Abzan midrange after rotation. However, after a bunch of testing and because of what I already had available from before and from my box I switched over to Mardu. Mostly the switch was made because of Prognostic Sphinx
though. Sultai and Jeskai decks (the decks I've seen running the sphinx the most in testing) typically have ways to deal with all of the creatures Abzan had to offer and the sphinx turns all the removal that makes Abzan so attracive into nothing but bad tempo spells because you rarely catch them with their hand empty. Switching over to Mardu gave me access to Crackling Doom
which is a game changer against the sphinx and allowed me to still run all the removal that made Abzan attractive (especially End Hostilities
in my sideboard).
I did consider the switch to Sultai because I was already invested in a lot of good 
/ 
stuff though. I was also invested in a lot of good / 
stuff as well too, so after opening my box swapping the for 
was easier to do (financially) than swapping for 
especially since I wanted to run Elspeth still.
October 10, 2014 8:32 a.m.
@Nomp What on earth makes you think Sultai midrange stuggles against aggro? I've never heard anyone say Abzan struggles against aggro and Sultai has all the same options for early aggro road blocks that Abzan does. Caryatid, Courser, Drown in Sorrow , Bile Blight ... then once it gets to turn 4 it starts to outclass the creatures the aggro decks are playing just like every other midrange deck. So I'm curious, what about this stuff is good against aggro in an Abzan deck, but causes Sultai decks to struggle?
October 10, 2014 8:42 a.m.
The only problem with sultai is that it shares the two best colors in standard currently green and black. Then you CANT consider them u have to consider the third which is blue which is at its weakest in this standard white is just strickly better. Sultai isnt bad its just not as good as other clans.
October 10, 2014 9:21 a.m.
what do yall think of this...
Sultai Midrange Playtest
Standard
SCORE: 0 | 0 COMMENTS | 384 VIEWShooded hydra, courser, grim haruspex, sagu mauler, and master of the feast for creatures... and then despise, villainous wealth, hero's downfall, and sultai charm for spells. discard/kill/utility/powerhouse spells. Oh and mystic and wayfinder for ramp besides courser. soo... good value creatures - good big spell, removal, discard.... got it all :)
October 10, 2014 10 a.m.
Well I'm just going to post cards with 3 cmc in standard right now that aren't in the colors of sultai and are fairly helpful against aggro. Last Breath , Mortal's Ardor , Herald of Anafenza , Raise the Alarm , Nyx-Fleece Ram , Devouring Light , Wall of Essence , Soldier of the Pantheon , Oppressive Rays , Hushwing Gryff , Archetype of Courage is all the white and is quite a lot of things that hate on aggro strategies. Now for red cards there are Anger of the Gods , Bolt of Keranos , Eidolon of the Great Revel , Magma Jet , Magma Spray , Scouring Sands , Spark Jolt , and if you feel like combing the colors there is Deflecting Palm . Most of these cards will take down aggro while supporting the long term goal of a midrange deck.
I just reread what you posted and realized I misunderstood you but I'm still going to post this because it isn't really the worst list to have here. To actually point out the weakness that sultai has against aggro isn't the easiest for me because I'm not much of a standard player but I will try my best to do it all the same.
White being the determing factor here, abzan has the advantage when dealing with aggro thanks to white's cheap and efficient protection cards and creatures that have toughness over power. Sultai on the other hand has blue as their color which generally will be providing counter spells and card advantage but usually won't be able to help as much against early game aggro tactics. Abzan also has Fleecemane Lion which helps out tempo aggro by eating their dudes and Anafenza, the Foremost which is a really strong card period (especially against control match ups but that's beside the point).
I'm not saying that Sultai loses every time to aggro just that I don't think it is a great match up for it, especially when sultai midrange will be sacrificing slots for creatures when its more common control variant will be using those slots for dealing with aggro and just general control.
October 10, 2014 10:03 a.m.
I'm running Sagu Mauler as a finisher in my sultai control deck. When it happens people really don't see it coming and it's pretty insane. I almost never play it morphed though, I find it's much better to hard cast it late game with a negate in hand to protect it from a counter and then GG.
As far as sultai mid-range being less attractive than Azban or mardu, I'd agree. Sultai's strengths right now lay in the Control and reanimator decks. Miderange could work, but in the competitive field, the others just outshine it.
October 10, 2014 11:40 a.m.
Your cheap protection cards aren't aggro beaters... They require you already have something in play before they have any use. That means your spending 2 turns and 2 cards to stop what they're doing with 1 cheap effective card. Not an ideal situation at all and that's not how you beat aggro. Also, Soldier of the Pantheon
, Hushwing Gryff
, and Herald of Anafenza
do not stop aggro either. Just because they're cheap doesn't make them good against aggro because they all trade in combat, AT BEST. If your referring to the outlast ability of the Herald then your talking about playing a creature turn 1 that won't provide you any effect until you outlast on turn 3 (you know when you could be playing something like Drown in Sorrow
which is much better against aggro decks). Bolt of Keranos
, Scouring Sands
, and Spark Jolt
aren't playable. They're either only good against aggro and dead in every other matchup or, in the case of the bolt, too expensive as a 3 drop and slow as a sorcery (especially when you could be playing Anger of the Gods
in the same spot). At best they're sideboard cards and even then still unplayable because they're completely useless in most matchups. Deflecting Palm
also does not stop aggro, at best you prevent damage from one creature for a turn. It doesn't actually provide you an answer to the stuff they already have in play. You did point out some good things in and but that's kind of irrelevant. You just named of cards that help and and failed to explain to me why B/G/U would struggle. You basically just gave me examples of how Abzan and Mardu could deal with aggro but I never claimed that Sultai was the only good deck against aggro, so pointing out that other decks can handle aggro as well seems a little pointless. I also fail to see any merit in that last paragraph you typed. That's like saying why play Abzan midrange? You'll be using slots for creatures when it's control variant will be using those slots for dealing with aggro and just general board control. In fact the same could be said about any color combination you can think of. Using that logic, no one should be playing any midrange deck because it's control variant will using those creature slots for more control options.
Also, Siege Rhino , Fleecemane Lion and Anafenza, the Foremost do nothing against a creature suite that consist of things like Polukranos, World Eater , Reaper of the Wilds , Prognostic Sphinx , and Sagu Mauler and Sultai has enough board control that it doesn't need to rely on combat to deal with them. So while both decks can handle aggro, in a head to head matchup the only thing Abzan has that outclasses Sultai is it's removal package which becomes next to useless against a suite of creatures that either have hexproof or easily gain it.
October 10, 2014 3:04 p.m.
you want a comment... just based on your post.... Thoughtseize > Despise and Courser of Kruphix doesn't ramp. There, you shamelessly plugged your deck in someone else's thread and got a comment. Happy now?
October 10, 2014 5:12 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #20
I don't see how any deck that runs 4 Caryatids, 4 Coursers, and Drown at least out of the side is going to "struggle" against aggro. Ramping into AEtherspouts also works well. BUG mid is definitely playable in the current meta, and probably gets the upper hand in mid mirrors due to access to countermagic and the aforementioned sticky creatures.
October 10, 2014 7:26 p.m.
abenz419, I'm not sure I can really take you seriously after you decided to ignore the part where I pointed out that blue doesn't really help against aggro because it doesn't effect the early game much and even when it does most of the trades are 1 for 1 in cards but disadvantages on mana for blue. I didn't give a great explanation I'll admit that but I still gave one. The early game for sultai isn't bad but it doesn't include the same amount of board presence as abzan and it won't be able to deal with aggro quite as well because of it.
Also, why are you trying to convince me that sultai midrange beats abzan midrange? I was the first to admit that on here. It is amazing against other midrange because it switches to being heavy control late game so it can swing unhindered.
October 11, 2014 10:28 a.m.
VegetaWins_015 says... #22
I am not looking at net decking by no means strictly home brews are what I intend to make. I had the land base already pre-rotation so that is why I was building Sultai decks. Endless Obedience seems like a good card to run in sultai. You can reanimate any creature.
October 12, 2014 4:02 a.m.
Can you guys give me an opinion on my sultai? I'm not trying to hijack a post but I'm not sure where else I go with it being relatively new to the site.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/why-not-give-it-a-shot/
October 25, 2014 3:19 p.m.
Ijayc1 u can go to forums at the top and go to deck help and post ur own thread just so u know
October 25, 2014 7:35 p.m.
sultai is generally amazing . i think abenz just proved that sultai is awesome . how many kjoras do mardu , and abzan have huh . sidsi is just as decent as surrak . and how the heck does agro deal with mauler huh. prognastic sphink makes mardu removal go die , and abzan is not as fast as mardu so it falls to goodie removal by sultai . there , i said it .
October 26, 2014 1:32 p.m.
Honestly, Kiora, the Crashing Wave is pretty bad. I will take every other planswalker over that one right now. Simic is my favorite colors but it just isn't that useful. Mauler still dies to Crackling Doom although I haven't a clue if aggro runs that or not (I don't play aggro very often). Don't get me wrong, I enjoy sultai as much as the next person but it just doesn't feel like a good midrange color set.
Dreno33 says... #2
You tell me.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8262&f=ST
October 10, 2014 3:14 a.m.