Emergency Ban Update: So Long Crazy Cat
Standard forum
Posted on April 26, 2017, 8:53 p.m. by Ryjo
Felidar Guardian is banned effective this Friday (Thursday for MTGO).
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/addendum-april-24-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-04-26
(Linking doesn't seem to work for me.)
AgentGreen says... #3
I am honestly surprised. This is a good thing for the format
April 26, 2017 9:23 p.m.
JerichoDarkstar says... #4
I'm glad they finally did it. Better late than never, I suppose. Honestly, though, I'm super mad it had to be late in the first place. I find it hard to believe that 2 days worth of data was enough to change their minds so quickly.
They knew it has been a major problem for a while, and I am very disappointed in them not fixing this two days ago.
April 26, 2017 9:26 p.m.
Wee_Dragonaut says... #5
That was...surprising. If it only took 2 days collecting data to get to this conclusion, I am relieved they banned the cat. The ban did seem rather sloppy
Kaladesh...the most broken standard in since the original Mirrodin?
April 26, 2017 9:57 p.m.
RazortoothMtg says... #6
Wee_Dragonaut: It seems so. Turns out artifact sets are busted. If even Aether Revolt hadn't been printed and Kaladesh itself had, then all of the top like 80%-ish of the metagame wouldn't exist (Felidar Guardian, Heart of Kiran, and Winding Constrictor wouldn't have been printed.)
April 26, 2017 10:40 p.m.
Interesting,
I don't mind the cat combo being gone, however, i do hope this doesn't create a precedent of preventing combo decks in general from existing in standard.
April 26, 2017 10:41 p.m.
Eh, I don't think so. Abzan during ths-ktk reached higher percentages of the meta than either Copy Cat or Mardu Vehicles. Highest CC hit was like 30-something, while Abzan hit the 40s at points according to mtgtop8, who's data I trust. This standard was awful, but ktk was pretty shit too lmao. Soi-bfz-Ktk was pretty much all bant company, well over 40%, so that was even worse than now as well. People pretend like this was one of the worst standards of the past few years, but lets be real, they've almost all been garbage fires, and this one hase been one of the less severe ones.
MindAblaze also mentioned cawblade, and that deck was also more powerful and dominant than saheeli/Vehicles. I didn't play at the time of ala-zen, but I know jund was so insane that jtms was unplayable because it was too vulnerable, so I'm going to assume that that standard was also even more lopsided.
This came out a bit rambley, but I think I got my point across.
April 26, 2017 10:56 p.m.
Yes!
AND hahahahahahahahahaha to all those lazy sons of bitches who used to run Copy Cat.
We will now see rampant Snek Decks I reckon.
April 26, 2017 10:56 p.m.
AgentGreen says... #11
Don't be so sure Argeaux
As you know, sneks adds a counter to every critter....
Any....counter.....
If we see -1/-1 counters a thing; Snakes may be both the blessing and the curse for the deck
April 26, 2017 11:04 p.m.
I think the late response has somethig to do with prices in the secondary market. If everyday players can see the issue for why the card is in need of a ban, it shouldnt take the creators of the game long to follow through with the act (if they agree with the players).
Perhaps they discovered another issue which the banned card would have created if it remained in standard.
April 26, 2017 11:16 p.m.
I'm honestly at a loss... I have to rethink my entire strategies moving forward... Everything was so Copycat focused that I'm wondering how the meta will develop and as a control player that is critical.
April 26, 2017 11:17 p.m.
it shouldnt be that suprising considering that its a standard-meta-breaking combo and combos like that kinda dont make it to great. but... the meta will change a lot. mardu vehicles, -1/-1 counters, who knows what we'll see coming up now that this has changed so much
April 26, 2017 11:36 p.m.
emrakulinsmugglers says... #15
the only problem i have with this ban is that now the meta won't be an obvious copycat mardu + one random thing, so i can't just throw Manglehorn everywhere and expect to survive
honestly, i think wizards took a while on that; if they were considering feedback, they probably should've gotten a lot of negative feedback on copycat, and taking action now, after 2 bnr updates that said "no changes to all format" it feels more like a 'please don't stop playing magic we'll ban copycat'. i know that 4c went 5-0 at the most recent event, and they want amonkhet cards being used, but seriously? they let copycat stay alive that long?
April 27, 2017 12:56 a.m.
I don't think it should have been banned. They based it off of 2 days of online play but you need real time to give players a chance to innovate and come up with new strategies. Amonkhet already had a perfect counter to copy cat in the form of Trespasser's Curse
April 27, 2017 2:31 a.m.
AgentGreen yeah I know that Winding Constrictor adds -1/-1 Counters to all Creatures BUT I haven't seen many builds on here that have cards which put a -1/-1 Counter on anything.
April 27, 2017 2:32 a.m.
If you play a deck that puts -1/-1 counters on your opponents stuff and they Control a winding constrictor they'll get extra -1/-1 counters on their creatures.
April 27, 2017 2:50 a.m.
MWorl91 you didn't read what I wrote.
I already understood that, before AgentGreen posted.
Now, show me how many decks out there run a lot of -1/-1 Counters that can match other decks in the meta.
Decks will need to be built to match up against Control.
Which is what I predicted in the "guess the meta" topic.
I don't think that running stuff that puts -1/-1 Counters on Creatures is going to be a good play against a Control deck that runs Torrential Gearhulk and a bunch of Counter spells.
The most common way of putting -1/-1 Counters on things will be Soul-Scar Mage, which I have seen used in quite a few decks.
Control will just Essence Scatter or Harnessed Lightning that thing.
Does everybody get it now?
April 27, 2017 6:35 a.m. Edited.
THANK YOU WIZARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! #makestandardgreatagain
April 27, 2017 8:17 a.m.
Just to follow up ...
... Snek Deck is EXACTLY the match up that Control hates.
Usually 21 or more Creatures Mainboard and another 4 in the Side.
Plus Nissa, Voice of Zendikar to accelerate the pumping of Creatures on the field, and make Control have to use another of their removal spells.
So, what are people going to choose? Siding against Snek or Siding against Control.
Good luck doing both.
The best solution?
Mardu Vehicles Mark 2 - a deck that out Aggros everything else in the season.
I don't have the skill to build that on my own.
April 27, 2017 10:12 a.m.
Argeaux A good card that could work against R/B Control is Kambal, Consul of Allocation. I understand that he could be countered, but you could just throw out Prowling Serpopard before him.
April 27, 2017 10:23 a.m.
My main deck is really good against Snek Deck once I get an Archfiend of Ifnir online... Control will need a bit more work to beat, but as long as there isn't the 'I win' button that Copycat had its okay fighting through good decks. Honestly that was the worst part, I'd be winning all game and then I'd lose with them at no board and 2 life...
As a brewer I hope people are more creative than just falling back into G/B Snek and Mardu Vehicles but I won't be surprised if that's what it came to.
April 27, 2017 10:26 a.m.
Oh you can suggest good card combos against a deck all day and every day.
Practically they probably won't work.
I'm your scenario the card gods have to perfectly align.
Firstly, you have to play three colours and have them all line up so that you have access to two on Turn 3, plus one and one on Turn 4.
Not only that but you have to have both those Creatures in your hand in the right order.
Finally, the thing about Creatures that can't be Countered and make all your other Creatures come in without being Countered is that your Opponent just kills them with an Instant, making them useless.
Harnessed Lightning is that Instant.
The sequence you are suggesting would happen once in a Blue moon, but not consistently enough to shut down a Counter deck.
April 27, 2017 10:33 a.m.
Soz for the double post.
I predict that Mardu Vehicles will no longer be a thing as EVERY colour now has some form of answer for it.
The biggest problems for it are Magma Spray, the good old Fatal Push, and Sweltering Suns.
It hasn't been winning in the MTGO tournament.
April 27, 2017 10:37 a.m. Edited.
Zaueski it's going to be at least Turn 6 before you can get your Archfiend of Ifnir to drop a -1/-1.
Unless you Ramp.
Snek Deck aims to kill you by then.
I would also remind people that putting two -1/-1 Counters on Winding Constrictor is not an automatic game over.
It will not kill the Snake or Riskar, the damage can be easily mitigated by Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, and the deck also wins handily without the Snake.
I think most people WON'T play Snek Deck early on, unless they are smart and work out it is still viable.
If some do, and find out it still works, then buckle up.
April 27, 2017 10:47 a.m. Edited.
AgentGreen, Argeaux, read the card again, it says artifacts or creatures YOU control. When YOU would get a counter. You can't use it to put more -1/-1 counters on enemy creatures.
April 27, 2017 11:01 a.m.
JerichoDarkstar says... #30
Actually, they are right. Winding Constrictor says: If one or more counters would be placed on an artifact or creature you control
It does not specify where the counters have to come from. It simply states that if counters would be placed, you do the following replacement effect:
that many of those counters plus one are placed on that permanent instead
The card never says that you have to place the counters, only that they would be placed there. So if your opponent would place a -1/-1 counter on a artifact or creature you control, your own Winding Constrictor will cause an additional one to be placed.
April 27, 2017 11:12 a.m. Edited.
While I think ultimately this ban was a smart decision. The timing is questionable...
Per their announcement they knew the deck was a bit of a problem, but they wanted to gather more data and see how the new set went. With a major paper tournament coming up this weekend, it just completely railroaded everyone's prep and expectations which is kind of a scumbag move regardless of if the decision was a good one (which I think it was)
April 27, 2017 11:19 a.m.
skrid54321 says... #32
The timing was a pipe dream the almond cat would somehow resolve the issue by adding strong answers to cat. There weren't, so it didn't
April 27, 2017 11:29 a.m.
I already understood everything you wrote, but there was a disconnect.
quote from Argeaux, AgentGreen:
"yeah, I know that Winding Constrictor adds -1/-1 counters to all creatures."
"to all creatures"
"all"
"As you know, sneks adds a counter to every critter"
"every"
reading back, I know that by 'all' he actually meant 'all creatures you control' but he was never specific, leading to confusion.
April 27, 2017 11:29 a.m.
You knew what I meant.
Also, why do you assume I'm male?
Women play Magic too.
April 27, 2017 12:38 p.m.
I think all of the bans should be announced at once, for standard, modern, edh, legacy, online, and vintage. I know the edh bans are handled differently, but Wizards is in the loop, so why not let them just announce that with the other bans?
As for Copy Cat, the card shouldn't have been printed, at least not with haste. This was already a known problem, no need to wait two extra days for the ban hammer to be dropped.
I'm glad I only play edh, bans are rare for us, although some are sorely needed IMO. (Looking at you, Deadeye Navigator, you are just too much with Mystic Snake, Cloud of Faeries, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, etc.)
April 27, 2017 1:09 p.m.
They normally DO announce all bans at the same time.
The Felidar Guardian ban came down at a different time because it started to dominate the MTGO Standard format right away.
The problem with Felidar Guardian has nothing to do with Haste.
Wizards have already said that they should have made it only able to flicker Creatures.
April 27, 2017 1:22 p.m.
Let us not get into petty arguments over something trivial as this. As long as everyone understands then it's all fine.
On a note relevant to the discussion, even as a combo/control player I do agree with this ban. If I recall correctly there was talk about a "healthy length of a game of magic", which was >4 turns in modern (leading to twin's ban). Now that we take this thought into consideration and look at standard, I'd like to think that coming to this format one could expect at least 5 to 7 rounds to be played before the game is over.
ehh.. TLDR: Personal preference; let's play at least 5 turns and THEN press the win-game buttons
April 27, 2017 1:23 p.m.
Homura_Akemi says... #38
I agree that there was bad timing. This ban should have happened sooner.
April 27, 2017 5:01 p.m.
I like how they mentioned, "They'll start doing more extensive testing before printing a card."
That's BS.. They must've known the interaction. Just now after 24 years they realize they need to do more extensive testing? Just a cop out.. Listen, I love Wizards.. But they have got more and more money hungry over the past few years, just so they can release sets to meet a certain deadline. They need to focus more on a healthy format and less on quantity. Just my two cents.
April 27, 2017 5:46 p.m.
Im new to magic/ccgs, but ive been playing fighting games competitively for a loooooong time. Infinites in any game are absolutely garbage. Glad to hear they got rid of it so i can stop listening to the people at my card shop complain about it.
April 28, 2017 9:12 a.m.
emrakulinsmugglers says... #41
solarPULSAR infinite combos in magic generally aren't too powerful to warrant a ban. the problem with copycat was it was a 2 card turn 4 infinite combo in standard, and was hard to deal with.
April 28, 2017 9:53 a.m.
this is what happens when you only put sorcery-speed removal in standard... or instants at 5-6 mana... useless!
April 28, 2017 9:55 a.m.
emrakulinsmugglers Ill defer that judgement to the old-timers, since i'm new Im probably wrong. All i know is in fighting games, if there are infinites the game is garbage :P
April 28, 2017 9:59 a.m.
@solarPULSAR - Infinite loops in magic are a bit different from infinites in fighters. Infinites in magic are a bit like a character archetype. A player might say they are playing a combo deck just like a player might say they are playing a rushdown character. All in all, infinites are just another archetype for players to mess around with and aren't inherently problematic. It's just that the copycat combo was too powerful while also being format warping. Those qualities made Felidar Guardian ban worthy.
April 28, 2017 10:09 a.m.
TheDevicer Thats interesting, I didnt think about it like that. Thanks for the info
April 28, 2017 10:18 a.m.
geekmp3 I feel the same way. It really seems like Wizards is hesitant to provide us with some truly astounding cheap instant-speed removal, other than Fatal Push of course. I would very much enjoy another printing of Naturalize or Hero's Downfall.
April 28, 2017 10:23 a.m.
A Hero's Downfall reprint in Hour of Devastation would be so amazing. Or if they're insistent on making it Sorcery speed it needs to be at 2 mana like Dreadbore...
April 28, 2017 1:52 p.m.
We already have four spells that hit Planeswalkers in Standard.
I could be wrong, but I doubt that we will get a fifth in Hour of Devastation.
geekmp3 we have a 3CMC Instant that hits Planeswalkers. It's Anguished Unmaking. If you put it in a deck with Lifelink you can mitigate its downside.
I for one am glad that the Planeswalker removal cards are Sorceries, for the most part.
It used to be so cheap to play a Planeswalker then have it wrekt straight away.
You can still destroy them. You just have to be a little bit more creative, or wait a turn.
April 28, 2017 2:08 p.m.
Only thing I'm sad about is not being able to play Felidar Guardian to blink a Regal Caracal while Metallic Mimic is in play. Need more cats...
April 28, 2017 4:06 p.m.
"Hey, remember when we made Dubious Challenge as a joke for Collected Company?"
"Yeah."
"Let's do that again, but for Felidar Guardian!"
"Ok. What would it look like?"
"I dunno, but make it GARBAGE."
McSleuthburger says... #2
Lazy people link
But the short version is: They pre-released Amonkhet on Magic Online, Copy cat cobmo did really well. They probably want to stop issues before people find other stupid combos that work too well.
April 26, 2017 8:59 p.m.