esper in standard
Standard forum
Posted on March 31, 2014, 3:18 p.m. by EmblemMan
Is this becoming a thing? I know that esper is prrety strong now but it seems to be dominating wherever I play considering how those local metas are creature based but just curious if anyone else thinks this is or will rise in popularity.
What? Esper has been in in standard for a long, long time. For the last what... 6 months? 12 months? It hasn't not been a thing anywhere.
It's arguable that esper is actually dropping in popularity, at the moment. When the shocklands rotate then it will DEFINITELY drop in popularity. This is the wrong time to start playing esper though.
March 31, 2014 3:21 p.m.
Esper is going to crash come rotation. Losing shocks, Sphinx's Revelation , Supreme Verdict , and Detention Sphere . Not to mention most of our win cons. I definitely would NOT invest in it right now.
March 31, 2014 3:23 p.m.
Haha yeah. Control's gona die a bit. So excited to see what board clear we get though - there has to be a good one.
March 31, 2014 3:24 p.m.
I've heard rumors of a reprint of Damnation . Which would be insanely awesome. Not holding my breath though.
March 31, 2014 3:26 p.m.
$60? Have they skyrocketed recently? I got a textless foil for $45 a couple weeks ago.
March 31, 2014 3:28 p.m.
At least at my LGS, I've noticed that everyone, and I mean EVERYONE is playing some serious esper hate. While esper is an extraordinarily powerful deck, and when it wins, it's practically unstoppable, Control in general has been over-dominant recently, and you'll have to have sideboard answers to all sorts of random crap people will play against you. Last FNM, I played Esper and had to deal with at least three people playing Ruric Thar, the Unbowed . It was very annoying.
I've also had some pretty bad encounters will a certain Golgari deck built for the sole purpose of beating Esper by being virtually 100% resilient to Supreme Verdict and Detention Sphere , and the only way Esper can beat that deck is with AEtherling . Planeswalkers just die instantly all the time.
Also, there's a Junk deck that uses Blood Baron, Voice of Resurgence, thoughtseize, Soldier of the Pantheon, Golgari Charm, Abrupt Decay, Hero's Downfall... This deck is also very resilient to Verdict and Detention Sphere. You have to run things like Merciless Eviction to exile their threats.
TL;DR version:
- Esper is ridiculously strong, but people are playing decks that specifically beat it.
March 31, 2014 3:28 p.m.
Well just from what I noticed is that it completely died around when theros came in but then idk I guess its just where I am people have started playing it again I wasnt planning on playing it but it seems strong with a very creature heavy meta which is all I see with this current standard meta but I could be wrong thanks for your opinions guys
March 31, 2014 3:30 p.m.
Yeah I pretty much completely agree with that summary. Esper was incredibly strong a few months ago, dominated the meta (at least as the dominant control deck), and since then people have been playing all kinds of Esper hate. Its honestly a pretty difficult deck to play right now. Everyone has answers for it.
March 31, 2014 3:30 p.m.
Starcity puts them at $50 right now, seems legit.
I traded a thoughtseize, pain seer, overgrown tomb and junk for it.
March 31, 2014 3:32 p.m.
ChiefBell definitely got the upside to that trade... jeez
March 31, 2014 3:37 p.m.
Yeh. Although I'm now stockpiling shocklands. I have over 20 Steam Vents .
Whats that? Most used shockland in modern you say?
March 31, 2014 3:40 p.m.
Yeah, got the textless figuring that even if a reprint happened, it would its value. I actually think it may go up with it being available in standard. No way will they ever reprint the textless art.
I would definitely recommend stockpiling shocks. I'm trying to get a hold of as many as I can, and will probably go on a buying spree when rotation hits and all my friends who play standard dump them.
March 31, 2014 3:46 p.m.
Yeh. It's a shame that shocklands are rotating out. I think it will severely damage the meta - with tri-colour decks maybe dying? I think one of the biggest factors killing esper is a lack of quick land, at the moment. Obviously in the future, when S. rev etc goes then it will all be over. Although we can hardly speculate about the cards that will come in. It's quite exciting.
March 31, 2014 3:52 p.m.
It's interesting because deck like Mono-Blue devotion lose a lot of great cards too, like;
even the non-creature spells;
Rapid Hybridization and Cyclonic Rift
Thassa, God of the Sea and Master of Waves are gonna need to make some new friends..
March 31, 2014 3:58 p.m.
Once Journey into Nyx is mostly spoiled, we'll likely start to see 'rotation proof' decks start to pop up.
March 31, 2014 4 p.m.
I've been spoiled by Supreme Verdict I'm not gonna like playing wrath effects that are vulnerable to measly counter spells.........
March 31, 2014 4:02 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #22
Theros has been great for G/R players, the only cards leaving those decks are Domri Rade , Ghor-Clan Rampager , and Stomping Ground .
Esper has been the top dog in the competitive scene for a couple weeks but it has lead to a surge of aggro decks and Black Midrange splashing Red for control hate. A lot of checks and balances in Standard right now. Esper is good in a slow meta and weak in a fast meta.
March 31, 2014 4:07 p.m.
The Doctor says... #24
Esper control and midrange have been consistently outranking U/W Control lately, and have been popular for several months now. Perhaps you're just not noticing it at your LGS because it's quite expensive?
March 31, 2014 5:45 p.m.
YEah, I'm not looking forward to rotation... Standard is already quite stale, with 3 top decks that haven't really changed since PT Theros. Once RtR rotates out we pretty much lose all the most interesting cards in all the decks. The next 3 sets better be awesome.
March 31, 2014 5:54 p.m.
One thing I think its interesting to remember when we look to rotation, is how few M14 cards play big roles in the current standard. M13 had a much larger impact, IMO, with cards like Thragtusk , Farseek , Flinthoof Boar , and the check lands being played all over the place. All M14 has that sees extensive play is Mutavault . There are obviously a few others, but nothing that's close to as prevalent as swaggy was. So yes, we'll lose a ton when RTR rotates, but hopefully we'll also gain quite a bit with M15 replacing a relatively lackluster M14 (apart from Mutavault of course).
March 31, 2014 6:02 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #27
I fail to see how Standard is stale. We have a different deck winning the top tournaments every week and a new deck rising to beat it. Yes there are a few major archetypes but the actual decks vary immensely. So much variety.
March 31, 2014 6:03 p.m.
I wholeheartedly think that the latest sets have been a disappointment. Oddly enough my ranking of the sets ive played would be roughly chronological -
Inn block > RtR block > M13 > Theros block > M14
March 31, 2014 6:05 p.m.
The top-ranking Esper lists going around right now are very similar to Azorius control decks but seem to just splash Black for a bit of removal, Thoughtseize , and Blood Baron of Vizkopa / other B/W creatures (and usually out of the sideboard).
I played Esper at FNM last week are fooled around with Obzedat, Ghost Council , Dimir Charm , Far / Away , Notion Thief , and Sin Collector , and I have to say that those are all cards that Azorius control really needs in varying degrees.
Esper is definitely better than Azorius and likely will be until rotation. It's the same deck + better cards.
March 31, 2014 6:06 p.m.
@kmcree: Archangel of Thune , Celestial Flare , Fiendslayer Paladin , Imposing Sovereign , Domestication , Tidebinder Mage , Doom Blade , Duress , Lifebane Zombie , Xathrid Necromancer , Chandra, Pyromaster , Young Pyromancer , Chandra's Phoenix , Garruk, Caller of Beasts , Kalonian Hydra , Scavenging Ooze , Witchstalker , and Ratchet Bomb all say hi.
March 31, 2014 6:14 p.m.
@zandl: almost every card you mentioned is used almost exclusively as sideboard material. They aren't featured cards. Archangel of Thune has seen almost no use the last 6 months, and has only recently begun her revival. Kalonian Hydra is only seen in R/G monsters, and even there it isn't prevalent. Scooze isn't played at all. Yes Garruk and Chandra see play, but remember that M13 had its own Garruk and Chandra that probably saw more play. My comment still stands, M13 was more heavily played than M14.
March 31, 2014 6:24 p.m.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck_search_result.asp?CardName=Scavenging%20Ooze&partner=MAGCINFO
I see lots of Standard, there.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck_search_result.asp?CardName=Archangel%20of%20Thune&partner=MAGCINFO
I see lots of consistency, there.
March 31, 2014 6:49 p.m.
I just feel utterly bored by the new sets. So devoid of any interest. I also feel like the new meta is pretty narrow with what 5 archetypes? Azorius / esper control, MBD, MUD, RG? Two of which are almost the same. Do you not just find it so dull?
March 31, 2014 6:52 p.m.
Wow you found some decks that run those cards. Congrats. I've been playing standard 2-3x a week for the last 4-5 months at several different shops, and I can tell you almost nobody plays either Scooze or Archangel. If you look at the Scooze page, the majority of those decks are Modern decks. I specifically stated they weren't played in Standard. As far as Archangel, she's been making a comeback with some Bant lists running her. I said that in my earlier post. I've seen a few Azorius decks that run her SB, but again that's SB. Once again, my previous comment still stands.
March 31, 2014 7:06 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #36
R/W Burn, Mono-Black Aggro, Red Aggro, Esper Midrange, Jund Monsters, and B/W Midrange are all viable decks and different from the 5 archetypes you listed ChiefBell.
March 31, 2014 7:43 p.m.
In lower tiers, yes......
Viable doesn't mean 'consistently making top 8 at every tournament'
March 31, 2014 7:46 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #38
RUG Monsters just top 8'd the Invitational. Burn won the Grand Prix because it smokes Esper. B/r Midrange won the Invitational. U/w won the Open, Esper placed one deck in the Top 8 of that tourney.
Seems diverse to me... The competitive meta changes weekly.
March 31, 2014 7:49 p.m.
I said - 'consistently making top 8 at every tournament'
Not 'placing highly in scattered tournaments'
A meta defining deck is one that is almost always seen in top 8s. The decks that youlisted, whilst obviously fantastic are not the prime candidates. I was referring to the bread and butter of standard, not the surprising alternatives.
I'm sorry, I just reminisce about the Inn / M13 / RtR days.
March 31, 2014 7:51 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #40
Almost all the decks I listed have won major tourneys. Check out the decklists on SCG.
March 31, 2014 7:51 p.m.
I'm not arguing that they're bad decks - I'm arguing that they're scattered and low-key. They're not meta defining.
March 31, 2014 7:54 p.m.
If we go back to Inn / M13 / RtR we had strong and consistent showings from things like - Selesnya aggro, Boros aggro, Gruul big things, RDW, Reanimator, Jund, UW hexproof - mid, Esper
March 31, 2014 7:57 p.m.
Just sayin', bro. Don't get mad when your generalizations are dissected.
March 31, 2014 8:02 p.m.
I'm not mad. I'm just comparing the distributions of top decks in this meta versus previous metas. Evidence seems to support the way I feel. That's cool.
I guess over the internet you can't tell if I'm mad or not, but I promise I feel okay with people calling me out. I always say it's more interesting to have a discussion than to have a strop and leave the thread.
I guess I argue so much people must think I'm always angry haha, but I'm not. I just have opinions, and try to support them :)
March 31, 2014 8:06 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #45
I'm telling you they are... There is no dominant deck. Esper players like to say the rule Standard but they get punked by so many decks that are mainstays and have only 2 good weeks of results in the past couple months with sporadic top 8's before that. Black has been split into many different decks that are all different but constantly top 8 and win tourneys. Monsters has split into two very different decks that both top 8 and win tourneys. Red Aggro spikes and top 8's when Control gets big.
Burn is a tier 1 deck. Anyone immersed in the competitive meta knows this...
Classifying Standard by MBD, MUD, Monsters, and U/W/x Control is outdated and ill-informed. MUD isn't even a top deck anymore.
On a side note to those playing only FNM in a small town and hitting the occasional big tourney: Of course your metas are stale, product of your environment.
March 31, 2014 8:11 p.m.
MUD actually is still a top deck, it's popularity has fluxed but it's inherent power has not faltered. This is evidenced by it's ability to Top 8 w/o any new cards from BNG.
March 31, 2014 8:13 p.m.
I'm going to be honest and say that I don't play standard after an intense distaste with it.
These are reports from my town and friends, and mtgtop8. So only two sources, one of which is always a little behind.
I don't really care how many different MBD has split into - it's still MB. I don't care that RG has split into two decks - it's still RG.
I was being nice with MUD, I know it's not great but I thought I'd include it because it's not 100% dead.
I do feel that the argument that (for example) black has split into many different decks and thus the meta is diverse is misleading because well..... effectively they're utilising the same shell, and strategy, I don't mean strategy as in 'aggro', I mean it as in the bombs will be similar, the removal will be similar, the tempo will be similar.
March 31, 2014 8:17 p.m.
If you think the meta is interesting and fun then no amount of arguing from me will change your opinion. It DOES seem the case that a larger amount of viable decks existed before. Therefore my argument is that, due to this fact, I find standard boring. I'm not going to change your opinion, but I hoped that a list of previous archetypes would at least demonstrate my thinking?
March 31, 2014 8:19 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #49
MUD is still powerful but has more bad match ups than good ones. U/W Devotion is more versatile but plays more of a midrange game than Aggro. I'd consider U/W a top deck before MUD.
March 31, 2014 8:20 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #50
Black Aggro plays no Desecration Demon . It's a completely different deck built around Pain Seer and Herald of Torment .
kmcree says... #2
I play Esper myself, and I will say, if anything, its actually been declining the last few weeks. I think it could make a comeback, but right now Azorius is the dominant control deck IMO. Its all cyclical though.
March 31, 2014 3:21 p.m.