esper in standard
Standard forum
Posted on March 31, 2014, 3:18 p.m. by EmblemMan
Is this becoming a thing? I know that esper is prrety strong now but it seems to be dominating wherever I play considering how those local metas are creature based but just curious if anyone else thinks this is or will rise in popularity.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #2
Well I'm not speaking for any of your metas, just reporting on the competitive meta. I'm a little tired of Modern players who don't actively follow Standard talking down on it. I find Modern boring and to be full of broken decks but since I don't follow it closely I assume there are probably many intricacies to it's slow moving meta I'm unaware of. I don't trash what I don't know and wish Modern players would do the same.
March 31, 2014 8:35 p.m.
But it's not hard to know at least a little about standard and look at lists and say 'hey, this time last year there were twice as many archetypes here!'. Everyone's entitled to an opinion.
March 31, 2014 8:38 p.m.
I also don't play modern. I've just looked at Theros and BNG, and can't help feeling like they don't give a lot of interesting options. I don't really like the gods, and while it has other good cards, it doesn't have a lot of cool cards. There's not a lot that you can look at and say, "thats going to do cool things." Its says a lot when a 2/4 common creature with an ETB is one of the strongest cards in the format.
March 31, 2014 8:40 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #5
Whip of Erebos was in the main deck of the deck that won the Open this past weekend... Has been a 1x-2x in most black decks for weeks.
BNG gave us much more than 5 cards... this is a joke.
I just need to check out of this thread I think.
March 31, 2014 8:42 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #6
The back-and-forth of Esper and UW is basically a rock-paper-scissors game with the rest of the format. Since GR / Jund Monsters has become more popular recently, Esper's removal and answers for Planeswalkers have become more popular. However, with Boros Burn on the rise, we may see a shift back to UW due to it having less dead cards in that matchup and the faster / more consistent mana. Between those two, it's entirely a meta call. At my LGS, Esper was doing really well for a few weeks until this last FNM, when a bunch of Burn decks showed up and only one Esper list made Top 8.
March 31, 2014 8:51 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 - I think you're looking at these tiny changes between decks when most people are arguing that the gross overall structure is actually very similar. This has come out in your argument with examples such as saying that Whip of Erebos is significant because it's a 1-2 of. Or that RG has different variants. These are microfeatures, not macrofeatures. My point is that you're looking extremely closely at the format and missing the fact that the overall playstyles and mechanics upon which these decks are build are painfully similar.
The most fundamental, overt problem with standard at the moment is that it's lacking one of the three aspects of rock, paper, scissors - successful combo decks. This is something that we have seen in previous metas, but isn't present right now.
Your profile mentions that you only came back to magic around DGM. This would explain why you don't have fond memories of innistrad block - because you didn't play innistrad block. I'm not disrepecting you, I'm merely pointing out that both me and Bestach are looking back fondly at this block in magic that you didn't play. Of course your opinion will be different to ours. The only caution I would mention is that it is perhaps wise to value the opinions of the players who have played through all the blocks in the meant time and have first hand experience with them.
Checking out now - 2AM in the UK.
March 31, 2014 8:52 p.m.
MUD is so consistent that it doesn't matter what it's matched against, that's why it's good. It has worse match-ups compared to other match-ups, but really it's probably the top dog as far as sheer consistency goes. That can't be denied.
March 31, 2014 9:10 p.m.
Look at a lot of the top decks. Almost no BNG cards show up in any of them. Maybe a couple of decks with Pain Seer and Herald of Torment , maybe Fanatic of Xenagos or Searing Blood . But again, most of these are in fringe decks, and in low numbers or sideboards. Kiora, the Crashing Wave showed up in 1 Bant control deck that got Top 8 in a PTQ. While saying only 5 cards made an impact on Standard may be an exaggeration, its not far off.
Don't get me wrong, I love this limited format, but the standard format is nowhere near as fun to play as previous formats, and this is coming from someone who enjoys standard. I can't imagine what it looks like to someone who plays modern.
March 31, 2014 9:44 p.m.
I think that's why we're seeing so many different iterations of the same builds, U/W and Esper and Bant control, Mono-Blue and U/W Devotion, and Mono-Black with either red or blue splash, and the Burn. G/r and Jund Monsters. It really is only a few pillar archetypes and their different blends of each. I can definately agree that it's getting stale, and the only wya to keep from getting fed up is to pick an archetype and make it your own. I've been enjoying Bant Control and I don't mind that I gave up on Mono-Blue, as I never really enjoyed going all in on derpy creatures that could be wiped away, although I don't always do great at FnM with Bant Control, I have fun piloting it.
You can still find ways to have fun in a stale meta, it's a matter of perspective.
March 31, 2014 9:49 p.m.
Yeah, I'm splashing White in MBD, which is a deck that I actually quite like. But I've been playing 2 whips the entire time, which a lot of Mono black players stopped doing. I enjoy the interactions of whip with a lot of the deck, and some of the different lines the deck offers. But its not as exciting as the Esper control I played pre rotation, and the decks I face aren't as challenging or interesting as things like Jund, Junk reanimator, Act 2 , B/W tokens, U/W control etc.
Now its all about Pack Rat vs Pack Rat and Elspeth/Domri vs Hero's Downfall . I'm fairly competitive and the competitive decks currently don't have some of the cool things I want to do available to them. I want some cool value 2 drops in JOU. Like Augur of Bolas or Snapcaster Mage were in INN/RtR
March 31, 2014 10:48 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #12
I've never really cared about the meta, personally. I run a Grixis control/burn deck for my FNM build and it's top-4'd the past few weeks despite having no top tier cards in it (if you don't count staples like Dissolve or Lightning Strike ).
April 1, 2014 1 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #13
I agree with canterlotguardian- if the meta is boring to you, or you don't like the mechanics of top-tier decks, try something different. Just because an archetype won't win any GP's any time soon doesn't mean it can't be competitive at your local FNM, and you'll have fun playing something you've customized to your style. If and when you do have success, it's greatly rewarding knowing you built it from scratch. Not trying to start a "netdeck v homebrew" tangent, but this seems like the obvious solution for those who are complaining of a stale format.
April 1, 2014 5:45 p.m.
I definitely agree that it can be fun to build your own experimental decks, but that's only half the problem. My biggest issue with standard right now is that, as soon as my opponent plays their 2nd land, I pretty much know what deck they're playing, and probably name off 90% of their decklist. To me, that's the boring part. I'm perfectly happy with the deck I play, in fact I love playing it. But I would have so much more fun if I was playing against a more diverse competition. Playing literally the exact same 4 decks over and over week after week gets tedious.
April 1, 2014 6:07 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #15
That's definitely true; you can't control what your opponents play. That said, each experimental homebrew comes with its own unique set of challenges to overcome the commonly-played decks in the format. That's typically where I derive the most enjoyment from the game, aside from the brewing process itself. Unfortunately, keeping it fresh with new decks to concoct either requires a fat budget or a hookup for cards.
Bestach says... #1
There may be some fringe decks, but there are several main archetypes that show up constantly. None of these decks (fringe or main) have any of the flair that INN/RtR decks had. Without interactions from things like Snapcaster Mage , Thragtusk , Restoration Angel , Olivia Voldaren , Falkenrath Aristocrat etc. the decks have become effectively vanilla creatures. Desecration Demon , Tidebinder Mage , Blood Baron. Even though some of these have a lot of text, the format is less about interesting plays, and more about killing guys, getting devotion and beating down with undercosted creatures. My favourite card in theros is Whip of Erebos and even that isn't really seeing play anymore
BNG added about 5 cards to the format (Bile Blight , Drown in Sorrow and Scry lands). There may be others, but the change was almost unnoticed. If you compare this to RtR -> GTC, or GTC -> DGM, you can see how little impact these sets have had on standard. It might not just be a couple of archetypes, but its still boring to play
March 31, 2014 8:24 p.m.