Goblins or burn?
Standard forum
Posted on July 19, 2015, 12:43 a.m. by Nixin72
Every since Goblin Piledriver got spoiled for magic origins, I've been super hyped about mono red goblins. But, after evaluating the decks strengths and weaknesses, I feel as if burn is stronger.
A few days ago, Japanese pro player Tomoharu Saitou released 10 standard deck lists in consideration for pro tour magic origins and included among them is two mono red lists. A burn list and a goblin tribal one.
his burn list was this:
2x Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh Flip3x Lightning Berserker3x Zurgo Bellstriker3x Scab-Clan Berserker4x Monastery Swiftspear 4x Eidolon of the Great Revel 4x Wild Slash4x Lightning Strike4x Exquisite Firecraft4x Stoke the Flames4x Searing Blood21x Mountain
While his goblin list was this:
3x Frenzied Goblin4x Foundry Street Denizen4x Goblin Glory Chaser4x subteranean scout4x Goblin Piledriver4x Goblin Rabblemaster4x Dragon Fodder4x Hordeling Outburst4x Stoke the Flames 4x Obelisk of Urd21x Mountain
Neither list contains a sideboard. Both lists I have adapted slightly to suite my personal inclusions such as Magmatic Insight as a 3 of in burn and Atarka's Command as a 4 of in goblins.
My feeling so far is that goblins is too much of an all in strategy making it far more susceptible to big sweepers and board wipes. Running Obelisk of Urd helps this issue, but does not resolve it. Everything still dies easily, which is difficult, if not impossible to recover from with so few burn spells. I feel as if burn is going to be a much more consistent and solid deck as opposed to goblins.
I want very much to know what others think about this. I really enjoy playing mono red and would like a list built for game day. I would like to know others thoughts on which is stronger and the strengths and weaknesses of both decks as well as any cards that you have found work particularly well for you either archetype.
Thanks you for your time, I'm eager to know what others think!
I would second you going burn.
Everyone has been hyped about Goblin Piledriver the same way they were about Goblin Rabblemaster.
Those both need other stuff to make them work, given their low toughness.
There are so many good burn spells at the moment that can be played on each turn. They allow for damage to creature or player, and give other options such as Scry.
It's a good time for burn.
July 19, 2015 10:30 a.m.
@Behgz- I've been playing atarka red from since the command was released as well, and it's performed incredibly for me. Would you however consider the switch from atarka red to more like the burn list I've presented above? Don't get me wrong, I love my red deck. Everyone in my meta has their little sideboard against me specifically, be it life gain or sweepers.
But with Chandra now available along with such a punishing creature base, do you think it's worth taking a shot at a punishing red? I've only been playtesting for a few days now, and as such I can't fully assess the strengths and weaknesses of the deck, but it's so far been incredibly fast- almost on par with atarka -it's been very explosive with Chandra easily pulling off turn 4 wins and incredibly synergistic.
July 19, 2015 12:02 p.m.
I think its incorrect to play without atarkas command.
I think scab-clan berserker is better out of the sideboard against control, rather than part of a mainboard 'punishing' plan. Eidolon is good tho, I've been testing him in the main actually over hordeling outburst.
I'm not immediately impressed by the new Chandra, seems like your jumping through hoops for little to no pay off, what does she do for you after she flips that a stoke couldn't do?
If you've been playing atarka red for a few months now then you shouldn't need to be told that its the superior choice.
July 19, 2015 1:57 p.m.
Oh well, I'll wait until pro tor... Maybe it's just the Johnny inside me that's getting excited about the burn list.
July 19, 2015 2:43 p.m.
It's a pretty basic concept but here's what I've been mucking around with.
July 19, 2015 3:44 p.m.
mono-red burn is my iteration of burn. I will be trying it out at FNM this next friday. It is an adaption from a goblin deck that used Impact Tremors so there are still those along with 4x's of Hordeling Outburst and Dragon Fodder. The Pyromancer's Goggles are insane! The Avaricious Dragon is prone to removal but worth the effort to empty your hand before casting(so there is no downside to him).
Behgz says... #2
Aside from a few 1-drop goblins like glory chaser and of coarse pile-driver, the obelisk of urd goblins deck has already been an option and wasn't as strong as Martin Dang's Atarka Red list.
In a heads up, the goblin deck can beat atarka red, but it's mostly a coin flip, Atarka red can win just as easily.
That being said, it would seem like a toss up as to which of the two decks one should play. One needs to asses which of these two red decks will perform better against the rest of the field, including mirror matches.
As you identified, the goblins version will fold to any sweeper effect from a Doomwake Giant to End Hostilities and everything in between.
The upside to playing the burn red deck is its ability to close out a game with burn regardless of how gummed up the board gets or how many times it gets swept. In fact, the burn deck actually relies on these types of moments in the game, get out a few tokens and a swiftspear, deal upwards of 8 to 10 damage before the board gets cleared up, then close out the game with burn spells while your opponent is preoccupied with trying to clear the board of your now unneeded creatures as they've already done their job. If an opponent is unable to handle the early board presence the game is just over. If they take time to deal with your few early creatures, you capitalize on that tempo swing by burning them out at your leisure over the few remaining turns.
By now I'm sure you've realised where I'm getting at. Martin Dang's Atarka Red list is the premier option right now in standard red decks, and although there's some cool new toys for the obelisk goblins deck, it doesn't really push it over the top for consistency or for resiliency, something the Atarka red deck already had shorn up.
I've been playing Atarka red since about the time fate reforged came out, I've had a pretty decent run with the deck, in fact I've had my best overall win/loss ratio ever since picking up the deck. It does one thing and it does it very well, it deals lethal damage faster than most decks can deal with, in the face of most opponents sweepers and other hate cards. Not many decks in standard can boast that.
Now for the real talk; in my local meta, Atarka red has been running a muck and the local players I see on a regular basis have gone home week after week having taken rough loses to the premier red deck in standard, and they've gotten sick of it. More and more players are coming prepared to deal with the red match ups, almost to the point where I can't just show up and flip my cards over til they add up to twenty like I was doing two months ago. Now my opponents show up with courser, rhino, and even Arashin Cleric and Feed the Clan. It's increasingly difficult to get through the later rounds of most events I frequent solely because the atarka red deck I've been championing has become so well known. I bring this up only as a caution that you may be new to the deck if you choose to play it, but your local meta may already be prepared for it much like mine.
I've been contemplating how/where to start and the only thing I can think of is putting together a stock u/b control deck so I have something I can audible to in the event I feel I will get paired against unfavorable match ups for atarka that day, as most players in my area know me to be on atarka red and they get percentage points against me when the decide on keeping their game 1 opener. Knowing your opponents deck before it starts is a huge boon, and a tough one to come back from on the receiving end, but these are serious next level problems I'm delving into here.
If your at a cross roads of which deck to pick up, and your like me on a budget and it's either one or the other, I would highly recommend the atarka red burn deck. You really don't want the feel bads that come along with watching all your 3/3 gobo tokens taste the Languish. The burn deck laughs at Languish
July 19, 2015 2:18 a.m.