Homebrewing at FNM
Standard forum
Posted on Feb. 24, 2014, 3:45 p.m. by altozachmo
Hey guys, this is my first post! So exciting! Alright so my girlfriend and I went to our first FNM last friday and we had a great time. I ran a pretty aggressive Rakdos deck ( altozachmo ) and my girlfriend ran a boros midrange deck. I took 14 out of 34 and she took 26. Something we both noticed is how many of the people there were playing similar decks. Little did we know, that the two of us were running "Homebrews."
For those of you who don't know apparently that makes you inferior to other players.
I don't understand the thinking there. First of all, is "homebrewing" really that uncommon? Does it automatically translate to a loss? apparently not because I beat 3 of those peopleIn my opinion, all of the fun comes from homebrewing. Putting together what you can and making the best possible deck. Not going on tappedout or SCG and looking at the top decks this week, then clicking "buy it now."
Please take a look at my deck and help me improve it. These players are what takes the element of skill out of magic and replaces it with a credit card. It would be the best feeling ever if next week I take them out again!
shaistyone says... #3
It can be uncommon, it just depends on your meta. Where I play, there are only 8-10 people regularly and the division between brews/netdecks is roughly 50/50.
I have actually never played a deck that I didn't build myself, but many players aren't interested in the deckbuilding process. Where it starts to fall apart (like in the rest of the world) is in how people naturally believe that their way of doing things is the correct way.
As an example, the way you phrased some parts of your query indicate that you look down on those who don't build their own decks. I assume this may be a reaction based on sneering comments from your opponents at the tournament you mentioned, but it is no less of a biased reaction.
Magic is a pretty big tent, so definitely do what you feel will lead to the most fun for you. But try to be tolerant of those who have a different perspective.
February 24, 2014 4:01 p.m.
blackmarker90 says... #4
And there are some people who just don't have the time to homebrew on a regular basis
February 24, 2014 4:30 p.m.
Also, keep in mind that the standard format has the smallest pool of cards to draw from and as we all know there are cards in every set that are designed for limited play vs. constructed play. That means the cards that are the obvious choices for best in the format at the time will see tons of play in a lot of different decks (including homebrews). So even when someone isn't directly "netdecking" their deck can appear very similar and make you think they are. Especially if they're following a similar strategy as one of the "top 8 decks", because their deck shares some of the same cards it'll have very similar interactions and will typically play out in a similar fashion.
February 24, 2014 4:45 p.m.
Designing decks is an integral part of the game and one of the fundamental ways to interact with the knowledge and people in the game. Homebrews make no player inferior. EVER.
Every deck, including tournament level decks, were once a homebrew by someone out there, perfected and tested for weeks. Netdecking makes no player inferior. EVER.
A good player has skill and sportsmanship, regardless of the cards they sleeve and the spells they sling. Everyone would do well to acknowledge and internalize this information.
February 24, 2014 5:07 p.m.
altozachmo, don't worry yourself over the netdeckers and congrats on joining the homebrew clan lol you are not inferior at all.
abenz419 makes a good point about netdecking, that the best cards in each colour are usually used by everyone who plays those colours and by default you will see a lot of very similar decks so please please don't just assume some one is a netdecker if they have the popular cards in their colour in their deck, talk to them first and ask them about it.
Regards to the homebrew inferior thing, homebrew decks can be looked down upon by some players as 1. They are not always that good, 2. The other players just do not understand what you are trying to do and 3. Pure card snobbery, homebrews are usually budget decks designed (in my eyes) to be fun, in other players eyes cheap inferior decks. Now good magic players will have no issues with homebrew decks and in fact if number 1 is true for a homebrew deck they will usually be the first to give you some help, hints and tips to make the deck stronger that way it leads to number 2 for them and sometimes for you... a better understanding of how the deck works, how to play the deck and how to have more fun with it.
Finally you mentioned it was your first FNM, get to know the group and the players, make some deck tech friends and share ideas and this was your homebrew ideas will get better and better and better.
February 24, 2014 5:25 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #8
No, most people don't automatically look down on homebrewers. Did that actually happen, or do you just feel that way because you didn't place very high?
Budget decks typically won't do as well as non-budget decks, simply because a budget deck doesn't have optimal cards in it. For example, a player running a similar deck to yours will automatically have an advantage if they play Blood Crypt rather than all basic lands.
Most "net decks" are put together by pros that spend many hours every week brewing decks. If we all had that much time to brew, I'm sure we'd come up with very similar ideas to the pros if we were skillful enough.
Some people prefer to start with a net deck and optimize it for local meta, and some people prefer to build from the ground up, and everything in between. Neither is better than the other - they are just different ways to approach the game.
Honestly, people who are brand new to the game and play a budget deck shouldn't expect to Top 8. Learn what you can from more experienced players, and try not to get butthurt over losing. Probably the best people to ask for advice were the people who beat you at FNM. Most players I've met who kicked my ass were happy to give me pointers,
Sorry if this sounds a little snarky, but I'm getting a bit sick of the "it's not fair that my $50 deck didn't win bcause people net deck or have more money than me" complaint on here.
February 24, 2014 5:38 p.m.
@SharuumNyan ummm... he never made that complaint so your getting a little bent out of shape for nothing buddy. The whole "homebrews make you inferior" comment was sarcasm, as you can tell from the context of what he follows it up with. In all honesty, from his post, it sounds like the problem he had at FNM was with the attitude the other players portrayed and not that people were "net decking", at least I hope no one actually told him he was inferior because he didn't get his deck list from a pro event top 8. Some players who are competitive and are used to playing against other competitive players who are bringing Tier 1 decks every week can easily come off as snobbish as though they look down on homebrewers, so I could easily see where the OP is coming from.
Being your time at FNM playing against a bunch of unknown people it may have just felt that way. I wouldn't let that discourage you from going back to that shop because people will tend to open up a little more as you become more of a regular there. Even friendly people can be a little reserve the first time they're meeting someone.
February 24, 2014 6:02 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #10
abenz419 - you've already blocked me from your profile because you didn't like my card suggestions, but you still insist on replying to my posts and talking down to me like I'm five. Why not just ignore everything I say in case you get your panties in a bunch again?
February 24, 2014 6:10 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #11
There have been countless discussions on this topic on these forums, but the short of it is that there's nothing wrong with either one. Some people enjoy simply playing the game and don't have the time/interest to brew, so they netdeck. Others enjoy the process of building a deck more than competing (I enjoy both, tho building is definitely my favorite part of mtg).
Regardless of which way you choose to go, there are bound to be haters, since some netdeckers think that no deck is worth playing if it hasn't won a major tournament, while some brewers think it takes no skill to netdeck. Both of those perceptions couldn't be further from the truth. The best way to dispel those stereotypes is to keep winning.
I remember when I got back into mtg about a year ago, most players looked down on my decks (and frankly, many of them sucked), but now that I have improved my building skills and made several FNM Top 8's or better with a few different home brews, I can honestly say that I'm right up there with the best 3 or 4 Johnnies at the shop. The same regulars who used to look down their nose now know to not underestimate my "crazy" brews as many have put it. Simply put, you gotta earn it, but I will say that for me anyway, winning with something I've concocted is extremely rewarding, and you certainly will gain respect from fellow players along the way if you're winning with decks that are unheard of.
PS: You should feel lucky to be playing Standard. From what I've read about Legacy, the "homebrews are inferior" attitude is much more pervasive.
February 24, 2014 6:30 p.m.
@SharuumNyan wtf are you talking about talking down to you like your 5? It just appeared you had interpreted wrong what the OP was saying because he was never making the complaint that his budget deck can't win because other people have more money and net deck. Then all I did was bring it back around to the original topic of how the other players made him feel as though homebrewing was frowned upon and offered some advise on that issue.
Until you said something I forgot you were blocked, but your comments on this topic are a perfect example and reminder of why I blocked you. Here's a hint, it has nothing to do with a card you suggested. You're a troll. You go around looking for things to complain about untill you get going back and fourth with someone. Then once you do, you get some high and might stance like you have not and never will do anything wrong. That's how you started off on this topic, ranting about an issue that had not even been mentioned before you said anything. Then I points out that the creator of the post wasn't complaining about net deckers beating his budget deck and the first thing you do is attack me, tell me that I'm talking down to you like your 5 years old, and accuse me of blocking you because I don't like your card suggestions (something I never did). In reality you should have said "hey you blocked me because I was acting like a jackass and repeatedly continued to antagonize you even after you repeatedly told me you were done talking to me and that I should do the same", but I guess that just doesn't sound as good as your story. Again I am done with you. I will do much better next time at remembering your name now and will never respond to anything you say again, now knowing your just looking for arguments.
February 24, 2014 6:59 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #13
"I am done with you"
I've heard that line before. Just mean it this time. What was happening before is that people would make card suggestions on your decks, and then you would insult them for making those suggestions. You talked down to everyone trying to help you and acted like your decks were already perfect, even though you were the one asking for help. When anyone would point out that your rationalization for keeping cards in your deck didn't make sense, you would take it personally and start with the trash talk and bannings. And you STILL didn't understand why many people were getting frustrated with you.
February 24, 2014 7:16 p.m.
except if you go and look at the deck in question you'll see that you were the only one that got banned so you were the only one who got frustrated... and the suggestions others made were actually considered and are some of those suggestions are still part of that deck a couple months later.
When someone suggest I remove a card, yes I do give them my rationalization for why I included that card in the first place, but that's no where near me insulting them. Doing that means that maybe they realize the card serves a bigger purpose in that build and might suggest removing a different card, or maybe they realize a better suggestion now that they further understand what I was trying to do in the first place, but best of all is sometimes things look good on paper but not always in practice so people can explain why my idea doesn't work even though it may be a completely rational and reasonable thought. That's how you learn and take advantage of the help your being given, because all of those scenarios are helpful. When someone comes up and says this will never be competitive change all of this, then proceeds to make suggestions for cards that function completely different than what the rest of the deck is trying to do without giving any reason or explanation as to why those cards are better in that build or how they would help more, then that's not helpful in anyway. In fact the argument could be made that that's not deck help at all, rather a suggestion a for a whole new deck. That's what you do though, you look to start drama which is why you insist on falsely accusing me of things when people with no prior knowledge of what went on can clearly see your just trolling. Seriously, every time with you it's the same thing. It's sad, there has to be something else you could be doing with your time instead of wasting it creating internet drama. I bet if you spent as much time on your decks as you do trolling the internet then you could come up with some really sick builds, maybe you should give that a try. Instead of focusing all your energy into something pointless and stupid, put it to good use.
February 24, 2014 8:13 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #15
Funny how I don't have these issues with anyone but you. Also, a perfect stranger contacted me and sympathized for the way you talked to me. I've never had that happen before either.
Anyway, why would a troll take the time to look over your deck and make suggestions in order to help you? I make suggestions on a lot of decks, but no one else has ever responded as rudely as you. Maybe, just maybe, the problem lies with you.
February 24, 2014 8:27 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #16
Why not do both?
Seriously...
Why not do both?
Have the best of both worlds. Grass is green on all sides. Flip cards and have fun.
February 24, 2014 8:36 p.m.
@altozachmo Hey welcome to TappedOut, hope you find the site features and community welcoming and helpful.
As you can see in this very thread, the community is a bit erratic from time to time, but you'll learn to live with it. (like most internet forums)
@abenz419 Not to completely take sides, but you have to be realistic here, hypothetical scenario; a magic player stumbles across TO.com and decides to give it a whirl, they post a sweet deck, sb and all, then proceed to deck cycle for advice, the first response they get is a good one, now they have to admit that the list they first posted really was in need of deck help and this random TO user has provided that insight, for all to see.
One of two things follows, 1) the owner of the deck list defends the recommended cuts and blasts the suggestions for reasons that may or may not hold merit. 2) the owner of the deck responds positively and takes the feedback for what it is, instead of getting hung up on where it came from.
Based on your lack of actually quoted material from the deck page in question, and my absolute lack of interest in tracking it down, I'm inclined to believe that SharuumNyan has made no attempt to troll now, or ever.
That being said, maybe don't get booty tickled about shit on the internet.
February 24, 2014 9:18 p.m.
@Behgz Like I said what I do is explain my reasoning for including the card in the first place in order to breed more conversation. More conversation leads to better suggestions which will ultimately lead to better deck building.... For example if you were to say I should replace card "A" with card "B" because "B" is better. I would probably respond with something like, why? The whole reason I got "A" in the deck is because it works with really well with cards "X","Y", and "Z" because I can do this or that.... Like I said, now you can explain to me why even though the cards I have do work together your suggestion is better. Or maybe you have a better understanding of what I'm trying to do and you say in that case card "C" would actually be a better choice. See what I mean about more conversation and how it can lead to better ideas? Not that it matters but this is what was going on between me and a couple other people who had made suggestions when Sharuum chimed in. He didn't like me asking why or saying that I didn't think his suggestion worked with what the deck was trying to do. I had asked for deck help so in his eyes that meant I had to accept whatever advise was given to me, because why would I ask for help and not accept it. The other people worked with me and would explain to me their reasons and logic when I asked about their suggestions or explained what I was expecting out of the card they wanted to remove. He, like he did in this thread, immediately got snappy and irritated and started carrying on, provoking drama.
If you need a reason to believe that he shows up looking to troll, just look at his first post. He goes on a rant because he's sick and tired of the whole "it's not fair that my $50 deck didn't win because people net deck or have more money than me" argument. Something that had nothing to do with the original topic or anything that had been said prior to his comment. At the time I didn't recognize the name and I said something about how that's not really what the post was talking about, then the second thing he does in this thread is make false accusations against me and attack me. Trolling is literally the only thing he's done since showing up.
February 24, 2014 9:55 p.m.
admittedly I may seem like I may have jumped gun to get a little snappy back, but that was only after his second post reminded me of who I was dealing with. Remembering the kind of non-sense drama he's looking to cause I may have gotten irritated a little more quickly than I should have.
February 24, 2014 10:05 p.m.
@abenz419 "Remembering the kind of non-sense drama he's looking to cause"
I'm gonna stop short of agreeing with you there. I doubt you can prove that conjecture, excuses denied.
February 24, 2014 10:10 p.m.
of course you can't agree with it, how on earth would you know what I remember and what I don't lol. I can prove it but I don't need to, so if you really want to know for sure it's under one of the updates on one of my decks. The post are hidden not deleted. If you wanna call me a liar then go and prove that nothing I said happened but don't refuse to find out the truth and then call me a liar, I don't need to go and search for quotes from a couple months ago to prove anything. Facts are facts and whether you believe them or not doesn't make them any less true.
February 24, 2014 10:53 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #22
No one called you a liar, just like no one who offered you advice on your decks was personally attacking you. You take things too personally and then lash out at people, which is how this whole thing got started in the first place. No one on this site is out to troll you or set out to do anything other than help you. Try to assume that people have good intentions, and that way you may not get so defensive and respond to people in a less-than-polite way.
February 24, 2014 11:15 p.m.
yes he was just calling me a liar. Either you weren't reading what he said or your just ignorant. Now stop putting words into my mouth, I never said anyone on my decks was personally attacking me, I said you got obnoxious because I didn't agree with what you suggested. You couldn't seem to understand how I could ask for help and not immediately accept yours. Just because someone asks for help and someone offers advice doesn't make it good advise. This did not get started because I take things too personally. Wow, how easily you forget. In case you can't remember, go back and reread the posts. You'll see that I pointed out that the person who started this thread wasn't using the whole " "it's not fair that my $50 deck didn't win because people net deck or have more money than me" argument that you were complaining about. Again, something you didn't agree with so your response to that was to immediately attack me and start falsely accusing me of trying to treat you like a child. That's when this all started, when you took things way too personally for no reason and started to lash out at people. You should try to assume people have good intentions, that way you won't get so defensive and respond to people in a less-than-polite way.
February 25, 2014 3:23 a.m.
SharuumNyan says... #24
I'm just going to point out that you have difficulties communicating with people, and leave it at that. If you reread your posts and don't see them as having a hostile tone, nothing anyone can say will help you understand.
February 25, 2014 8:33 a.m.
You need to speak for yourself because everyone else seems to understand me just fine. Everyone except you that is. Somehow your the only person in the world who manages to take what I say and claim it's a blatant attack against everyone I speak to. Since this is a problem I don't have with anyone else on the planet, it's obviously not something I'm doing. That means the problem has to be something else. Something that's different when I talk to you than it is when I talk to everyone else. Oh, I know what it is.... it's YOU, your the difference. So, if my post seem like they have a hostile tone, it's most likely because I was attacked for pointing out to someone, that they misunderstood what the OP was saying. Maybe if that person hadn't gotten so defensive and attacked me for pointing that out, then my tone might be a little more enjoyable.
February 25, 2014 10:10 a.m.
SharuumNyan says... #26
I don't need to prove that you're hostile. You're doing a really good job of it all by yourself.
I've seen you snap back at several people on this site, including Behgz yesterday. I've given advice to lots of people, and many people don't accept the card suggestions I make. It doesn't bother me at all. The problem was with your attitude about it. There's a difference between telling someone their suggestion doesn't work in a deck, and trying to belittle that person for their suggestion - which is what you do, whether you realize it or not. You also did the same thing when I tried to help you with your browser when you were having problems with the playtester.
February 25, 2014 11:31 a.m.
Gorgosaurusrex says... #27
Ignoring the thread derailing discussion that has spawned here...
I find deck brewing to be the most enjoyable part of the game. There are few things more satisfying than winning against a "top-tier" deck with your own "homebrew" deck, and the look of shock that you may receive from the other player by doing so. I've never played a deck that I have not constructed myself, and I don't intend to.
Last FNM I took my newest creation, T3h Burnz0rz. I sought to make Pyromancer's Gauntlet a usable card and feel that I may have done so. I beat another player's "top-tier" UW control deck with my "jank" homebrew deck, and the other player was absolutely shocked and did not react very well at all. He even refused to shake my hand after the match! The next player that I beat was far more gracious, and admitted that he grossly underestimated my deck.
While I didn't place in the top 8, I had a very good time and didn't lose every game. Some people like to win packs, I like to have fun and flip cards. Winning packs is just a bonus. I'll sacrifice some deck consistency for some originality and excitement.
February 25, 2014 6:58 p.m.
DodgeNDive says... #28
@altozachmo, When I started MTG, I played for months and months losing to all sorts of netdecks and homebrews because these players have played for much longer than I did.
For the best learning curve, I do recommend homebrewing decks for the first block you've joined (in this case, Theros). You'll learn and see how a meta forms and evolves, what sort of cards are staple, what sort of cards are unused. From this experience and knowledge, you'll be able to learn to homebrew effectively :)
I always start with something simple like a mono red aggro because they're easy to build, easy to play, and consistent. While playing you'll get to see other decks in your local meta to start building something you really want to bite into :)
February 25, 2014 7:26 p.m.
Some1TookMyName says... #29
Although the thread did get derailed I want to give my own opinion. I think, altozachmo that there are multiple assumptions from yourself and what you have been informed at your tournament. Personally where I live homebrewing vs netdecking is about at a 50/50 and people who top seem to be a 50/50 split too. Netdecks are consistent but predictable. Brews usually contain netdeck/meta answers/strategies and opponents cannot always predict hands/plays. Standard is very competitive where I live, almost every day a week I can find an "fnm" and there are half a dozen LGS within 30 minutes from me. I brew 3 color decks all the time. I also recommend mainboarding Exava :3
blackmarker90 says... #2
There was a Community Discussion about this a few weeks ago, but just because you can click buy on a specific netdeck does not mean that you will be able to pilot it correctly. For the people that do netdeck it takes a decent amount of skill to properly pilot a Pro Deck. Homebrewers have an innate advantage over someone who just buys the top deck every week, because they have taken the time to discover and learn all the intricacies of their deck. When push comes to shove today's top decks were somebody else's homebrews at one point in their life.
February 24, 2014 3:53 p.m.