How am I supposed to play against Planeswalkers?
Standard forum
Posted on April 4, 2014, 1:08 p.m. by Larty
Hello,
Usually I play aggro decks in standard. My latest deck is RW Burn, the deck list is here: list
My local FNM meta has control decks, so I'm often matched against Esper Control. How should I play against Jace, Architect of Thought ? Should I spend attack steps with my creatures to desperately try to lower its loyalty? Should I spend multiple burn cards to try to burn a planeswalker dead? I usually tend to ignore planeswalkers because I've reasoned that spending multiple turns and cards to kill a planeswalker usually translates to a game loss.
I almost always lose games against Esper Control and there's got to be something I'm doing wrong. Is it generally worth it to try to attack and burn planeswalkers?
Jace's plus -ability isn't that good against a burn deck like mine, but the second ability translates to card advantage, which translates to higher chances to draw Sphinx's Revelation or Elixir of Immortality .
In tonight's games, I felt like my opponents were pretty miraculously lucky with Syncopate s, always managing to counter my best burns. I guess it wasn't a good idea to always wait till your opponent's end step to burn him. They always played around me that way
April 4, 2014 1:46 p.m.
Nah, Pithing Needle may not be a good idea because it's not a burn card. Anything that's not a source of damage may not be good enough in an aggro or burn deck.
April 4, 2014 1:48 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #6
Okay, so i didn't watch the deck tech before posting, so I thought it was more creature-heavy. My bad!
So are you running Fated Conflagration ? Those deal with walkers and huge creatures very well. I assume you are, but I'm just asking.
April 4, 2014 1:51 p.m.
I chose to run one-of Conflagration in sideboard. I debated with myself if it's any good because that card doesn't burn players. Didn't get to draw that card in my Esper matchups, though.
April 4, 2014 1:56 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #8
It depends on the Walker.
If it's Domri or Jace (Or any future walker that provides advantage), then you should want to keep them low. Attack them when you can, but don't waste too much burn on them. Try to flip back and forth when burning the opponent or the walker.
If it's a win condition (Ashiok, Elspeth, Kiora), I would say just burn the opponent's face and try to race them. Boros Charm is probably your best friend in these matches.
However, I would also suggest Fated Conflagration in the sideboard, as it kills (I believe) every walker in standard even after they plus.
April 4, 2014 1:58 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #9
It is though. It's your defense against walkers, Polukranos, World Eater , and Stormbreath Dragon . How abundant is Esper in your meta?
April 4, 2014 2 p.m.
Tonight, three out of eight players played Esper Control. Out of 8-10 players each FNM, there's always about three Esper players.
April 4, 2014 2:04 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #11
I would argue that that's worth running at least another Conflagration, especially if you hardly ever do well against them. Definitely include it if there are a couple G/R Monsters running around too.
April 4, 2014 2:08 p.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #12
The dilemma when facing down Planeswalkers is a problem of card advantage and attrition. The longer the Planeswalker stays on the board, the more advantage it generates, and some of them alone can even win games when unchecked. However, dedicating too many resources to combating 'walkers generates just as much value for its controller by disrupting your plans. The goal becomes to deal with them (or at least keep them in check) in the most cost-efficient method possible. Ignoring a Planeswalker entirely is viable, but only if you have a plan to finish the game reasonably quickly that is both reliable and will not be vulnerable to the Planeswalker.
So it boils down to the situation you're in. Obviously, if your opponent is at 7 health and you have Boros Charm and Warleader's Helix in hand with 6 mana open, and they tap out for Jace, Architect of Thought , their's no point in burning Jace. However, if they ramp into a turn 3 Jace that might be game-breaking, he should be dealt with in some way.
The question you should ask yourself every time you're debating whether to focus on a Planeswalker or the player is this:
Will the resources I devote to dealing with this Planeswalker ultimately be worth more or less than the value my opponent gains for having this Planeswalker in play?
It's a tough question to answer, but the more you play the better you'll become at instinctively being able to judge what to do.
April 4, 2014 2:08 p.m.
Thanks, CrazyGuy. That's pretty much what I have reasoned. I made some mistakes in tonight's games so I guess that's a good reason why I lost. It just gets frustrating because I started to play in tournaments about 4 years ago and I hardly ever win at constructed games.
April 4, 2014 2:18 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #14
if you can kill it quickly, then do so, if it's gonna be a struggle focus on taking down their life and killing their creatures.
April 4, 2014 3:43 p.m.
Well, you did strait up link a deck tech video to the netdeck R/W burn you are attempting to pilot at FNM, and in that video Dennis Taylor goes over his mainboard and sideboard, including TWO Fated Conflagration in the sideboard. I would suggest rewatching the video you posted for advice/idea's, before you start tweaking the numbers of your deck.
Even though Dennis goes over why he thinks 'Burn' is finally poised to do well in a standard environment outside of Magic Online, that doesnt mean it's the top deck right now, and it doesn't change the fact that 'Burn' typically has a history of performing well online, but not in real life events, granted R/W Burn has been placing lately, the rest of the meta is starting to catch on, U/W control already had access to Blind Obedience and now can lean on it even more. Additionally Mono-Black has begun adopting the playset of Staff of the Death Magus to completely shut down a burn strategy, albeit a hefty 4-of to board in, it does more than it's fair share of mitigating burn and making it nearly impossible to win via burn once a few staffs hit the field, even bricking on a swamp ends up netting them lifegain which can completely hose 'Burn'.
Also, Pithing Needle is VERY good at stopping more than just Planeswalkers, it can turn off Mutavault and AEtherling and even a Stormbreath Dragon from going monstrous in a pinch, yes it's not another way to 'burn' your opponent, but if all you need is a way to shut down one major threat, the needle is perfect, as well as universally castable at 1 colorless cmc.
Some real advice I might offer would be for you to consider additional copies of Wear / Tear to combat potential Staff of the Death Magus and/or Blind Obedience , note additional, I assume you already have Some, consider adding more, as your primary win-con will be 'Burn' stopping the ways they have to stop You is paramount if you want to win 2 out 3 games.
April 4, 2014 4:40 p.m.
@Behgz I looked up some other decklists on RW Burn. There were lots of different builds on it, and that Dennis guy didn't have Wear / Tear nor Pithing Needle . In other RW Burn articles I looked up, someone made an argument not to run Fated Conflagration and run Mizzium Mortars instead, so I chose to play 2 Mortars in sideboard. It was the first time I played the deck, so I guess it takes some time to learn.
April 5, 2014 4:01 a.m.
My point still stands, there's the deck tech video you linked as your reference point for the deck Your piloting, and then you swap some things around based on other deck lists you've seen.
By doing that it's not going to run exactly like the initial deck tech template you started with, obviously Fated Conflagration was chosen in Dennis Taylor's list for a reason, and swapping it for mortars, which doesn't kill planeswalkers, is the flaw here, I'll say it again, go back and watch the video you linked. Try sticking to the template it provides w/o changing anything.
April 5, 2014 3:43 p.m.
I've watched it a bunch of times but I didn't even think of it as template. I suppose that's good advice, so thanks.
GoldGhost012 says... #2
if you're an aggro deck trying to kill Planeswalkers instead of your opponent, chances are you're not choosing the right target. You almost always want to go for the player, not the walker.
That said, Jace, Architect of Thought is just about the bane of aggro. And if you're losing to Esper control, which according to the rock-paper-scissors law of Magic, you're probably playing the control matchups wrong.
April 4, 2014 1:34 p.m.