How do control suite ratios get calculated?
Standard forum
Posted on April 10, 2013, 7:48 p.m. by DoctorMimic
I've been looking at many competitive decks for a while now, and what I really have never understood is how some of the numbers on control suites happen. For example, an Esper Control deck almost always has 4 Azorius Charm without a doubt, but then it has some mix of counter and kill spells. Sometimes they have 2 Dissipate , sometimes they have 1. They may have a single Dimir Charm , they may have 1 or 2 Devour Flesh , and I never really see the reasoning behind these number choices.
Are these ratios incredibly important to the fluency of these decks, or are they just kind of chosen on an instinct? This information would help me while making my own decks to keep my ratios focused if there is an answer.
Arachnarchist says... #4
Each of these cards serves a different purpose.
Azorius Charm
is used for general (temporary) removal against aggro decks, but it can also be cycled, or gain you some life. Esper decks use 4 because of it's versatility.
Devour Flesh
helps take care of hexproof cards and can also serve as general removal. The fact that your opponent gains life is irrelevant if you're playing control.
Dissipate
is good against graveyard recurrence that can otherwise grind down a control deck. It can exile Unburial Rites
and other flashback cards. It can also counter an opposing sphinx's revelation, and it stops Thragtusk
from ever hitting the field.
Dimir Charm
is once again used for it's versatility. It's a kill spell early, a counterspell mid to late game. And it can help filter your draws or hinder your opponent. However, it's slightly more limited in use than Azorius Charm
which is why it's not used as much.
April 10, 2013 8:30 p.m.
DoctorMimic says... #5
10vernothin: Yeah, I see what you're saying. The digging does help. With that logic, I guess things like "Do I want 1 or 2 Dissipate " is more up to personal preference, which is a good thing. I like some personality in decks, which is half the fun of the game.
Arachnarchist: What I'm asking is less about why the cards are chosen and more about the number of each. I can definitely see the strength of the chosen cards, just not always why they may play 1 instead of 2, etc.
April 10, 2013 8:33 p.m.
Arachnarchist says... #6
I guess I didn't answer that directly. But my point was: Azorius Charm is always useful so they almost always play 4. Where as the other ones are not always so useful (Devour Flesh is often worse than a targeted removal spell, Dissipate suffers from the presence of Cavern of Souls , etc.), so you would not want to have a hand clogged with these, so they play fewer of them.
April 10, 2013 9:19 p.m.
Kasada777 The numbers get fudged around like that based on meta calls, control has the most answers but they also have the most potential for dead cards.
If I'm playing aggro I can safely jam 4-of all my key creatures because I'm pretty happy to see them every game. Control has to survey the field and tune their deck against that, balancing their mainboard between resources good against the various match-ups. For instance, Dissipate is pretty terrible if tribal aggro that will run Cavern of Souls is going to be in high count that weekend, but it's a lot better against slower decks that want to utilize their graveyard.
The variety comes in because controls worst nightmare is an unanswerable threat.
April 10, 2013 9:26 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #8
Playtesting. Lots, and lots, and lots of playtesting. The professional players, who design and pioneer the control decks that make it big, spend soooooooo much time playtesting their decks and deciding if 2x Dissipate and 1x Counterflux is better or 1x Dissipate and 2x Counterflux is the way to go, and all those such things.
April 10, 2013 11:19 p.m.
Control sees cards as fillers of certain roles, they have cheap draw cards, targeted removal, counters, boardwipes, land, and wincons. They want to answer as many of their opponent's questions with some form of no while finally asking their own question and ensuring their opponent isn't able to answer.
April 10, 2013 11:19 p.m.
LightningKing523 says... #10
I can't remember where I read this but; Play 4 of a card if you want to see 1 or more a game, Play 3 if you want to see one a game, play 2 if you don't mind seeing one a game, play 1 if you only want to see it every few games or you have tutors or dig.
April 11, 2013 12:43 a.m.
What Slycne mentioned about metagame is really important, especially on a professional level. Pro players are tweaking their decks to match what they predict will be most popular at the upcoming event.
Thinking there will be a bunch of Unburial Rites at the next Pro Tour? Better load up on Deathrite Shaman , Dissipate , Rest in Peace , and Tormod's Crypt . Lots of Naya Humans? Time to get Terminus , Human Frailty , Volcanic Strength , and Rhox Faithmender in the sideboard. And so on.
April 11, 2013 4:38 a.m.
hiddengibbons says... #12
Here are some things I've noticed about the numbers and its partly from my own experience. Esper control usually runs 4 Azorius Charm , 4 Think Twice , at least 3 Sphinx's Revelation and at least 2 Snapcaster Mage . The 4 ofs are usually reserved for the early game cards or the dig cards. As for counterspells in general, I've seen lists with anywhere from 2 - 6. But I agree with Demarge, the cards are chosen to fill roles, its not so much important what card it is, but what it does. Basically, theres Removal, Filter/Dig, and Threat. Most often the highest ratio is Removal, then Dig, then Threat. Typically, Control Removes threats while Digging in order to have a clear path for it's own Threat(s) to win.
10vernothin says... #2
well the thing about control is that they can dig through their library better than aggro decks, which means they don't neccessarily need to have 4 of each spells. Instead most of the times it's about how often you need to use it in a game
For example, because azorius charm a)hoses aggro b)cycles, it is almost always useful and used in a game therefore is a 4 of.
Dissipate on the other hand is a hard counter that for the most part isn't really needed, since most esper control deck try to eke out and stall for the next Sphinx's Revelation + Supreme Verdict instead of downright countering everything in sight (opposed to something, say, a grixis control deck would do since they have burns). This means dissipate won't be used as much but still useful to be in your hand in case it's something immediately gamechanging [c]thragtusk[/c], [c]hellrider[/c], [c]angel of serenity[/c], planeswalkers eg.
Devour flesh and Dimir charm are those "situational" oh-I-better-have-one-just-in-case things for those tricky Geist of Saint Traft or Boros Reckoner and/or rakdos return or Slaughter Games or even just as another dig for answers. The thing is that these things have better counterparts (supreme verdict for devour flesh and dissipate/essence scatter/syncopate/negate for dimir charm) that you really only need one, "just in case"
April 10, 2013 8:24 p.m.