how does rakdos return stop control?
Standard forum
Posted on March 25, 2014, 1:05 p.m. by amishrambo
seriously how? any self-respecting control deck will never let you resolve it and since return is sorc speed you can cast it in response to a sphinx's rev to catch them tapped out
Link the cards in question: Rakdos's Return
The situation you posit is inaccurate: since Rakdos's Return is a sorcery, you cannot cast it in response to a Sphinx's Revelation cast on your end step as a sorcery may only be cast when the stack is empty.
You assume it will be countered... but what if the control player has tapped out to respond to a threat you played previously? If you're making plays, you force the control player to respond which creates opportunities to drop a Return on them.
March 25, 2014 1:09 p.m.
Plus, a lot of decks that run rakdos return are grixis, which has acess to Quicken
March 25, 2014 1:11 p.m.
It's a non-threat that requires an answer. They either blow a counterspell or lose card advantage, then the B/R/x player casts an actual threat to apply pressure.
March 25, 2014 1:19 p.m.
megawurmple says... #8
Having an empty hand is the worst thing that can happen to control player. If you manage to get them to tap out, emptying their hand with a Rakdos's Return can mean game over for them.
March 25, 2014 1:25 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #9
I like how you just assume that you'll have a counterspell in your hand with open mana for it at all points in the game.
March 25, 2014 1:32 p.m.
The plan is to pick the counterspells with Thoughtseize , Duress or by simply playing Threats into them a few turns beforehand.
Sphinx's Revelation and Rakdos's Return ... Ah, these two cards have an interesting dance if played against each other. If the Blue/White player doesn't have a counterspell, he cannot react by simply playing a Revelation against the Return, because he'd most likely have to ditch the new cards too. In this direct confrontation, the Revelation loses.
Perfect moments to cast Rakdos's Return are turn 4 Jaces/Verdicts or turn 6 Elspeths.
March 25, 2014 1:34 p.m.
amishrambo says... #11
TexasDice its more like two PO'ed ally cats walking in a circle not really wanting to comment to an all out brawl
March 25, 2014 2:11 p.m.
I have done that dance, and it is an interesting one. Opponent used a Rakdos's Return for 14, next turn I top decked a Sphinx's Revelation and revved for 12. Ended up drawing a 2nd revelation, used it the next turn for 13, only to be followed by his 2nd return for 16. We were both playing control variants (he had Dega, I had Esper) with almost nothing on the board. Game went on a while, but I finally won with Elspeth, Sun's Champion .
March 25, 2014 3:02 p.m.
Control usually plays around 2 basic concepts... 1) Keep the board state either clear or to your advantage at all times... and 2) Keep card advantage, so that you can readily achieve/maintain #1.
If this lands, it destroys #2, preventing #1. - If you can empty the hand of a control player (before they have stabilized their board), without emptying your own, you should win.
You are correct in thinking that this can be countered... but that's a little like saying "dies to Hero's Downfall " for any non-hexproof creature.
You have to "play the game" against control. You can't just cast this, and expect to win... you have to watch what they do, and anticipate what they have in hand.
Duress or Thoughtsieze will let you know if they have that counter spell, and get rid of it if they do. - Or just play another threat that they have to counter to waste their spells.
Even if casting the threat means only hitting them for 2-3 cards... it still slows their advantage, and helps tilt things in your direction.
March 25, 2014 3:53 p.m.
amishrambo says... #15
yea I keep forgetting Thoughtsieze is in the format (much to my displeasure) and so Tsieze and similar hand disruption can help a return get casted safely
March 25, 2014 3:57 p.m.
It's also pretty common to see something like the control player taps out to put a planeswalker in play and the BR player on their turn Rakdos's Return 's for their hand and redirects the damage to kill the planeswalker.
March 25, 2014 4:13 p.m.
Rakdos's Return is the blow out card. Its not something you cast early. The key is to land it later on in the game, right before you play our biggest threat. Hitting them with Rakdos's Return one turn, then dropping AEtherling next turn when they either tap out for Sphinx's Rev, or have no answers is pretty much a win. Its only really strong in the mirror, such as Grixis control. Most R/B decks don't want it, but when you can get it off at the right time its pretty much an instant win.
amishrambo says... #2
Rakdos's Return
March 25, 2014 1:05 p.m.