How is UB Control looking after Theros and M15 rotate?
Standard forum
Posted on July 6, 2015, 4:05 p.m. by TheAnnihilator
For starters, yes, I know that there's still a whole set before the stuff described above happens. However, one set isn't terribly impactful to the core of a deck... or is it?
I'm thinking of getting into Standard again -- I left it to go for Modern before. So, now that I have the Modern stuff I need, I am considering popping back in to play a deck that I enjoy. I had been on UB Control when I left, and it was a good deck at the time (Theros and Tarkir blocks). So, apparently, after that UB was bad and Esper Dragons was good, and now it looks like UB is better again, post Origins.
I have some of the base of the deck still, and I feel like it will be good for the next couple months. Out of the rest of the cards that I need, I believe Perilous Vault is the most expensive at like $4-5. The issue is that the stuff I need is the stuff that's going to rotate.
I'm just concerned over the temples, Hero's Downfall, Ashiok, the Vaults, Bile Blight, Dissolve, etc. are disappearing soon. Do you feel like UB will still be playable after this happens? I'd prefer to make this a more long-term investment.
Oh, and sorry if this belongs in Economics -- it's a little hard to tell where it should go.
Languish is huge. So for the next two months at least, UB control should be viable. Also, even though it's a complete downgrade from its previous versions, Clash of Wills is an absolutely fantastic addition to UB control. Those two cards alone are probably enough to keep the deck tier one. On the flip side, those two cards are really the only two viable additions to the deck anyway.
As you said, you are going to be losing Downfall, Ashiok, Vault, Bile Blight, and Dissolve. But frankly, those cards have already lost 75% or more of their value already, so getting rid of em now isn't really going to save you any money.
If you want to play UB control, go for it, it should be very strong for the next two months.
And honestly? Ashiok, Vault, and Downfall are decent to hold onto at least one copy each. All are cool EDH cards, and there's no reason Ashiok can't see play in modern. Just need to make sure your opponent can't combo off and win the turn you play him.
July 6, 2015 4:13 p.m. Edited.
We don't know until Zendikar is spoiled. This discussion is rather pointless until we know what the field will look like.
July 6, 2015 4:13 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #5
@TheDevicer -- Except that we have 3/4 sets that BFZ standard will have already. I feel like that's a fair enough set of data to explore. It's not like we're totally in the blind.
For example:
- Siege Rhino will still be playable and still be hated.
- Some kind of Dragons deck will be good. Prolly within the 3 Jund colors, would be my guess.
- Some kind of Esper control (or 2-color variation thereof) will be good, and RDW will still be around.
So, It's a fine discussion as far as I'm concerned.
July 6, 2015 4:21 p.m.
ABadMagicPlayer100 says... #6
I have to agree strongly with what kyuuri117 said. I do think UB control is very strong right now, but it has potential to lose a lot of strength post-rotation, so if you're looking for a long-term investment as your main factor, I would wait till BFZ is spoiled.
July 6, 2015 4:22 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #7
Does the small investment loss later on make up for the couple months that UB will be really strong? I obviously have my own opinion, but I'm curious to hear everyone else's.
July 6, 2015 4:30 p.m.
ABadMagicPlayer100 says... #8
That depends on how often you play competitively. If you play competitively often, you might be able to make up your investments in prizes. Otherwise, I would lean towards no.
July 6, 2015 4:37 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #9
Control never does well at the beginning of each standard format rotation. Because it doesn't have all the tools and utilities to do so. If you recall from when Khans of Tarkir was released, all the good control cards from the RTR block rotated out and control didn't have enough resources to fully make an impact on the meta. Control decks are almost non-cyclical unlike most decks (for example, Green devotion of any kind, always pops up early in the format, fizzles, and then finds it's home again near the end of a format, it's still always a deck, but not a deck that is always being played due to the way control decks work). Since control decks don't exactly take shape until at least the 2nd set of a new meta, midrange beat down decks rule the early meta, and once control kicks in, midrange dwindles, then as control decks start seeing more hatred from opposing decks sideboards, control dwindles and then midrange kicks back in. This format has greatly shown that effect (unlike RTR where UW Control was always pretty much 1 of the decks to beat). So in order to fully see what control has in store, we need Origins and at least 1 of if not both sets from the new block to fully grasp how good control will be.
July 6, 2015 4:44 p.m. Edited.
If you have 4 downfalls, 4 ashioks, 4 vaults, 4 blights, 4 dissolves and the 4 temples... obviously UB doesn't play 4 of each of those, but let's imagine you have all of that. I'm going to price em at TCG low (because lets face it, a ton of people are trying to move those cards now and not many people are buying).
You sell the Downfalls for $2.50 each, that's $10. You sell the Ashioks for $5.50/6, that's $22-24. Vaults go for $2.75, that's $11. You get rid of your set of blights for $2, same with Dissolve. Lastly, you sell your temples for a total of $5. That's a total of like $51-56 dollars.
Not bad, but... now you don't have any cards to use for the next two months. And that's if you're lucky enough to sell your play sets, instead of just 1-2 of each. Honestly, to me, it would not be worth it. I would rather play with a tier 1 deck, that I know how to pilot well, than to sit around for two months on mono-red budget getting my ass handed to me every other game by languish.
July 6, 2015 4:53 p.m. Edited.
TheAnnihilator says... #11
@kyuuri117 Thanks for the comment, but I think you misunderstood the OP! xD
I got rid of those a long time ago -- when they were peaked. Now that they're low, I'm considering picking em back up to play the deck again since it looks really sweet post-Origins.
In fact, I traded all of those things away, minus the Vaults (I never owned any, and was unwilling to purchase them at $10 apiece), for the Modern stuff I have now. =D
So, is it smart to pick them back up? I mean, I could at least play the deck through Origins until BFZ. I also need the two ORI cards you mentioned above.
July 6, 2015 5:02 p.m.
@UpperDeckerTaco They specifically said in an article that they waited till Dragons of Tarkir to really give control the pieces they needed in the current format because they wanted to give people a reason to play 3 color decks. If control had been strong and prevalent from the start, then people would have naturally been more inclined to play the more consistent mono colored or dual colored decks. SO, since they knew that they wanted a focus on the wedges (even if it was only for one set in the block) that meant they had to put the wedge set first and give control it's pieces later on in order to accomplish what they wanted. That's why control was playable when Khans was released, but didn't really pick up steam until Dragons was released. It had less to do with what rotated out, and more to do with what Wizards intentionally left out of the first couple sets.
So with that being said, the only way to know for sure if control will truly be viable is to wait for BFZ spoilers. If wizards thinks the meta will need control to be strong early on then we'll see a lot of solid utility cards for control in the first set to make up for the things they're losing. If they decide they want other archetypes to be playable (ones that don't normally rise to the top when control is strong) then expect control to get most of it's pieces in the second BFZ set. There is no set rotation where control is bad then good then bad then good, it all depends on how wizards designs their sets and the plans they have for the standard meta when those sets are released.
July 6, 2015 5:03 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #13
TheAnnihilator yes only one new set will be added but 4 leave. That's a 1100 card difference in the meta. Huge deal. Combine that with an unknown land base to work with. Answering metagame questions revolving around rotation at this point in time is an exercise in futility.
July 6, 2015 5:17 p.m.
TheAnnihilator Ohhhhh. Well, I think you could probably pick up the 4 downfalls, 4 dissolves, 2 ashioks, and 4 temples and 2-3 blights for like $20 dollars. Not at all a bad investment for two months of play. Cant really be upset that you're losing twenty dollars if you've gotten to use the cards for two months.
Plus the $25 for a set of languish, but that's a new card anyway.
July 6, 2015 5:39 p.m. Edited.
CaptainCaveman says... #15
TheAnnihilator IF money is no object then in my opinion you are better off playing Esper dragons even with Origins release until rotation. This is coming from a UB control player. If I had the $70 to invest in a play set of Dragonlord Ojutai that is what I would be playing. Having access to Silumgar's Scorn and Foul-Tongue Invocation main board is really nice and possibly Valorous Stance and Utter End.
If you want to stick to UB , I would stay away from the dragon version of UB which plays Silumgar, the Drifting Death, Dragonlord Silumgar and Icefall Regent. Although a one off of either main board or sideboard is OK.
UB control creatureless does not necessarily require that you main board Perilous Vault especially considering Languish so that might be a cost you do not have to incur.
July 7, 2015 2:17 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #16
CaptainCaveman Well, I'm not too keen on picking up a set of Ojutais. I would be sticking to the creatureless version of UB (other than 2x Pearl Lake Ancient, and maybe Tasigur or something in the sideboard.)
As for the Vaults, I really feel like UB should be playing at least 2 since Deathmist Raptor and Den Protector are a thing.
July 7, 2015 2:23 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #17
Then again, I'm not really an expert on Standard -- I just keep an occasional eye on it from afar, that's all. Modern is really more my forte.
July 7, 2015 2:25 p.m.
I've been testing out a creature less UB control list using 4 Sphinx's Tutelage. It's very powerful, especially with Jace's Ingenuity and Treasure Cruise. Not nearly tuned enough but it's a great starting point.
July 7, 2015 4:05 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #19
Mmm, kyuuri117, I just feel like that's not how you want to be winning... I mean, other people play delve spells, Den Protector, and Haven of the Spirit Dragon to take advantage of it, and Tutelage just doesn't do anything much by itself until it actually kills the opponent. Plus, you'd have to play T-Cruise over DTT, which is a huge minus. Also, if it's for the second ability (the one that costs WAY too much mana to activate), just compare it to Monastery Siege -- doesn't even see play.
July 7, 2015 5:05 p.m.
I hadn't given the card any thought until I saw the SCG versus video, Todd Anderson vs Tom Ross that was put up yesterday. Ross had two of em in his jeskai list in the sideboard. He got two of em on the field, and with like, two or three jace loot activations and draw steps, had milled like fifteen cards.
The thing wins much, much faster than you'd expect it to.
ABadMagicPlayer100 says... #2
As you said, a lot of the good cards in UB control are going to rotate when BFZ drops. I would say that unless BFZ has a lot of powerful control spells, the deck is likely not viable post-rotation. Personally, I would wait for after the rotation if you want to make an investment into the deck.
July 6, 2015 4:12 p.m. Edited.