Is control back and stronger than ever in standard?
Standard forum
Posted on July 22, 2013, 10:38 a.m. by gufymike
I've built this proof of concept for this week's fnm and possibly something to work with in the future.
With the release of M14, it brought us some reprints of good control cards. Mutavault is not just a tribal land, Silence , Doom Blade and Planar Cleansing all help the style. With the new Haunted Plate Mail .
What do you guys think?
the deck is: Going back to control
Epochalyptik I was going more for discussion on the topic of control is dead than actual help/suggestions for the deck.
July 22, 2013 10:59 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #4
With the right build Control will ALWAYS be viable....just has to have the right combination as certain weeks are better than others. (Rock paper scissors effect).
I personally am not using white so Esper is out. Instead I'm concentrating on more of a Combo/Control style in Grixis using Master of Cruelties and burn (but still have other win cons in case the combo fails).
Doom Blade being reprinted certainly helps this out :)
A card that I think is overlooked for a "control mirror" is Liliana's Reaver
July 22, 2013 11:23 a.m.
Liliana's Reaver is certainly awesome and something I've put in a Jund build. This weekend I built 4 decks based around the cards I have, each to test and play with, but the esper is my favorite, followed up by a revamped bant auras, then a r/u delver/young pyromancer build and then the jund build (which is heavy creatures, 2 spells).
When it comes to building the sideboard, I'll definitely look at this card.
Tomorrow, I'll add the r/u delver build, with the jund on wed, and the fixed up bant auras on thurs (bant aua's changed so little, while being a favorite, nothing special to talk about).
July 22, 2013 11:31 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
I can move it back.
I think control is currently dead because it lacks the power it had in the last two rotations of Standard. It doesn't have Snapcaster Mage + Ponder /Mana Leak , it doesn't have Jace, the Mind Sculptor , and it doesn't have a lot of the strong support it used to enjoy. A lot of the control-esque decks that even exist now are focused on attrition - they have to grind an opponent out, often by mill, because they don't really have the punch they need to establish combat dominance.
M14 would allow control to go for a Stax or wrath approach using Mutavault and Haunted Plate Mail , but I don't know how effective it would be. It would rely heavily on Terminus , Supreme Verdict , and other clunky sweepers. Silence and Doom Blade can only do so much, and the deck would have to be just as grindy as current mill decks.
These are just my observations. My only look at Standard is the occasional night at my LGS. I'm not an expert in the format, and I may be dead wrong on some things.
July 22, 2013 11:31 a.m.
Yes, Planar Cleansing does mean a heavy commitment to playing white based lands, I find it clunky. Terminus while a great card, is not my favorite sweeper for some reason. Maybe because I only own one and not willing to go get more before rotation....
July 22, 2013 11:35 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #8
From what I've noticed is that "control decks" are leaning towards more "midrange" win cons instead of a long grindy game using Nephalia Drownyard
.
People who have the stamina to play 7+ rounds grinding it out and then play top 8 matches certainly DESERVE to win, but the majority of "normal" humans do not have this stamina and thus have better consistency with mid range decks.
July 22, 2013 11:36 a.m.
I love control, but losing Searing Spear , Dissipate , Terminus , Think Twice , Pillar of Flame really cuts down on any strategy v. blitz/aggro etc. unless you go the fog route and hope for supreme verdict.
July 22, 2013 2:41 p.m.
i am running an esper control deck at the GP in calgary coming up... so i will tell you how dead it is after.
July 22, 2013 3:42 p.m.
xzavierx I expect with more two drop kill spells that matter, aggro/blitz won't be as successful either. Doom Blade and Devour Flesh being my two favorite of the moment.
July 22, 2013 4:04 p.m.
Yea i totally agree those help, i'm going to switch from american to esper specially for that reason. would still like another terminus like effect to go with verdict. Planar Cleansing is unplayable really, unless they add a ''they can't be regenerated'' effect for 6.
July 22, 2013 4:50 p.m.
U/W/x control is still very much a thing. At my shop there's an american control deck that runs a playset of Terminus and 2x Supreme Verdict s, along with the playset of Sphinx's Revelation and all the burn in red.
Control is definitely viable, but it usually needs the playset of Sphinx's Revelation to compete. Revelation is the only real draw power control will have post rotation.
July 22, 2013 5:37 p.m.
detentionsphere says... #15
Planar Cleansing is perfectly playable, it even top 8'd a Pro Tour. The reason it's good is that unlike Terminus , it can kill planeswalkers/Assemble the Legion /other problem noncreature permanents, and unlike Merciless Eviction or Oblivion Ring it kills the creatures AND the noncreature permanents. So while Terminus would kill the Thragtusk and the two Beast tokens but leave the Garruk, Eviction would kill EITHER the creatures OR the Garruk, and Oblivion Ring would kill the Garruk, Cleansing kills them all.
@Krayhaft: agreed. The only remotely viable builds of control HAVE to be UWx, sine Sphinx's Revelation is just SO powerful.
July 22, 2013 6:35 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #16
I'm sure Theros will have some instant speed draw spells. Otherwise as you say control decks will be U/W/X. Wizards doesn't usually want that.
July 23, 2013 4:12 p.m.
Control right now in Standard leans heavily on life-gain in order to not roll over dead by turn four to aggro decks. Without Thragtusk and Sphinx's Revelation , it's pretty weak. That's why Grixis doesn't see top-level competitive play, despite having some really strong cards in those colors. Archangel of Thune might add more "Oomph!" to control once Thragtusk cycles out, while Obzedat and Blood Baron of Vizkopa offer additional life gain.
I know plenty of control players (including myself, although I don't play control exclusively) really wish control didn't have to use life gain as a crutch. That's not to say life gain isn't used in control for other formats, but Deathrite Shaman 's third ability isn't a game changer for BUG in Legacy, and Baneslayer Angel isn't used just for her lifelink.
July 24, 2013 5:52 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #18
Why does it have to use lifegain so much? There are PLENTY of good removal spells out right now (I'll use Grixis as an emaple):
Pillar of Flame , Searing Spear , Devour Flesh , Far / Away , Cyclonic Rift , Izzet Charm , Dreadbore and that's just naming a few.
Decks that use "lifegain" cards like Thragtusk and Sphinx's Revelation are more of a "mid range" deck than actual control like Esper or Grixis
July 24, 2013 8:12 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #19
Sphinx's Revelation isn't about gaining life, it's about drawing as many cards as you can afford at instant speed. The life gain is simply extra goodness.
July 24, 2013 8:54 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #20
I understand that Schuesseled. I was refuting the argument of sylvannos by saying that you don't NEED lifegain in order to run a successful control deck
July 24, 2013 3:09 p.m.
The card draw from Sphinx's Revelation is the main appeal, while Thragtusk sets up two-for-ones. However, the format has some ridiculously fast aggro decks. Naya Blitz can have ten power out on the table consistently by turn two, while Junk Aristocrats can cast a Lingering Souls , pump out a 5/5 Demon token, then get several Blood Artist triggers, putting you in a bad spot.
To deal with this, control has to have a board wipe ready on turn four to stabilize, with life gain to get them back in the game and out of range of cards like Dreg Mangler or Shock . Otherwise, they sit there and sweat bullets at five or less life, hoping they have answers ready. Given the inefficient draw spells outside of Sphinx's Revelation and conditional removal/situational counterspells, what keeps control viable in Standard is life gain.
You can sit there and say Grixis is viable, and sure, it is to some degree. It does have some great removal and, in the right meta, can work. However, it has been completely absent from PTQs and Grand Prix top 8s for months, with many professional players choosing American Flash, Bant variants, or Esper Control. The common factors are Sphinx's Revelation , Thragtusk , and Rhox Faithmender in the sideboard.
July 24, 2013 5:18 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #24
If, as you say, you need lifegain to stabilize you, then with Thragtusk , Rhox Faithmender , or Sphinx's Revelation you aren't gaining life until turn 4 which by that point you would be almost dead and would lose to anything with haste. Why not use low cost cards with "big butts" to block and prevent most of the damage before it gets to you? One drop cards such as Kraken Hatchling are good examples
July 24, 2013 6:39 p.m.
Though harrydemon117 a lot of people played Augur of Bolas , that 1/3 turn 2 wasn't a bad idea adding in the sifting for an answer was just ;.... drool worthy.
July 24, 2013 6:46 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #26
Amen gufymike :)
He has the upside but if I recall from a top 8 Grixis or Esper build someone had 4 x Kraken Hatchling in their sideboard vs Naya blitz to help buy them the time they needed until they were ready.
Magmaquake is another good option, and even better if you get it off of an Augur of Bolas trigger.
Oh wait! I just remembered I DO use some lifegain in my Grixis Control build in Vampire Nighthawk ...too bad he's rotating though dang it
July 24, 2013 9 p.m.
detentionsphere says... #27
@harrydemon117: while it's true that the lifegain won't help you in the early turns of the game, by the time you get to the mid-to-late game, the aggro deck will have gotten you down to a low life total. The lifegain protects you from dying to burn spells/haste creaures, as sylvannos explained.
The other reason Grixis is not viable is that it lacks a sweeper as good as Supreme Verdict .
July 25, 2013 5:45 a.m.
I feel like wizards is trying to kill control. With things like Voice and Witchstalker being printed, control is really having it hard. I play control and even got third place with it at FNM, but I feel like post rotation it loses so many good things like Dissipate, Drownyard Sorin, Snaps, Tamiyo, Terminus, Think Twice, Lingering Souls, and Rhox Faithmender all rotating. With so many control staples rotating, control is pretty much screwed unless Theros is codeword for Control Set.
July 25, 2013 9:34 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #29
I disagree. Grixis doesn't need a sweeper to stay in the game. We can one for one (or even 2 for one with Far / Away ) until you control the board state. Using early 1, 2 and 3 drop removal (such as Pillar of Flame or Devour Flesh ) you can keep pace with them and drop your win con when you are ready. Not to mention counterspells DO help against them (disregarding Cavern of Souls of course, but more and more blitz decks are dropping these to make their mana more consistent).
Snapcaster Mage also "buys back" these removal spells to use again. The BIGGEST threat that Grixis has is cards like Lingering Souls which are 9/10 times counterable with Dissipate , Syncopate , etc. If it DOES resolve however, we have Izzet Staticaster to deal with it.
I think people are underestimating Grixis. I have had good matches vs: Naya Blitz, Tokens, Reanimator, Combo decks (i.e., Unexpected Results ), Aristocrats. Nothing is ever SUPER favorable, but with the right pilot it's slightly above 50/50 most of the time.
You could even use the Kraken Hatchling in the sideboard if you are that worried about them. It comes down turn one, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben doesn't make it more expensive post sideboard, and will sit there blocking a creature each turn while you deal with the others
July 25, 2013 10:40 a.m.
notamardybum says... #30
Quicken seemed interesting for control, it isn't a total waste because you do get to draw a card, plus there are plenty of sorceries I'd like to play at an instant speed
July 26, 2013 8:12 p.m.
detentionsphere says... #31
@harrydemon117: while this might be true in a lot of standard formats, this format is overflowing with value creatures like Voice of Resurgence , Thragtusk , Restoration Angel , Huntmaster of the Fells Flip , etc., so 1-for-1ing doesn't work.
The only reason UWX control exists is that it can gain massive card advantage through Supreme Verdict and Sphinx's Revelation .
But who knows, with the addition of Opportunity and Doom Blade Grixis might have what it takes to be tier 1...
Epochalyptik says... #2
Moved to Deck Help.
July 22, 2013 10:57 a.m.