Is Standard Broke?
Standard forum
Posted on May 4, 2015, 10:18 a.m. by kameenook
I just recently watched coverage for GP Toronto, and in the Top 8 alone there were 4 Abzan decks. Is Abzan too good? Does Siege Rhino need to be banned?
Concurrently, especially for anybody who watched the semifinals, the feature match was an abzan mirror, rather than the Mardu vs. Bant that was right next door, should they pick the abzan mirror we've all seen too many times over the relatively unique decks?
Also any ramblings about decks or colors that aren't seeing love.
You have to look at a larger sample size. GP Krakow and Sao Paulo had no Abzan in the top 8; Pro Tour only had one. Esper Dragon control is growing to be a bigger threat now.
May 4, 2015 10:24 a.m.
I almost mentioned Esper Dragons in the post, because watching the GP it felt like: Abzan, Esper Dragons, and a couple Bant decks. Den Protector I can't argue against, because people are playing morph. I KNOW, PEOPLE ARE PLAYING MORPH!
May 4, 2015 10:26 a.m.
I adore Den Protector even if it doesn't fit into my current standard deck. I do morph Rattleclaw Mystic every once in a blue moon, but I'm more likely to flip Whisperwood Elemental manifests than anything else.
You do see Stratus Dancer in some of those Esper and Bant sideboards too. It's a fun card.
May 4, 2015 10:40 a.m.
While watching people morph all those things, it led me to wonder if Secret Plans + Trail of Mystery could surge out of unplayability into the spotlight. It has to at least do decent at FNM, am I right?
May 4, 2015 10:42 a.m.
Might I just add that Abzan currently has a smaller representation in the meta than the ubiquitous Mono Black Devotion one year ago.
May 4, 2015 11:33 a.m.
TurboFagoot says... #8
The semi finals wasn't a mirror. It was Abzan Aggro versus Abzan Control. (Though I believe they incorrectly labelled the latter as midrange)
I wish people who had no idea what they were talking about would just stop talking.
May 4, 2015 11:45 a.m.
AngelicCookies says... #9
In my area Abzan is doing well, but the meta is still mostly Mono-Red and UB/x Dragon control; neither are doing well. The meta game is currently one of the "healthiest" in recent memory, as you can literally win with anything. I took top 4 at a PPTQ with ACT Aggro (New Tier One) and the winner was playing the GW Devotion deck from before Dragons came out. The only reason the format seems unhealthy is because any deck you make is likely to have some number of disgustingly good cards (Siege Rhino, Silumgar's Scorn, Stubborn Denial, Collected Company, Dromoka's Command, Whip of Erebos, Dragonlord Atarka, Thunderbreak Regent, Mastery of the Unseen, Whisperwood Elemental, Thoughtseize, etc.)
May 4, 2015 12:19 p.m.
Knee-jerk reaction. Take two seconds and look at the format spread across the latest SCG events, the recent GPs, and Pro Tour Brussels. A single Top 8 is a very poor snapshot of the whole picture.
May 4, 2015 12:23 p.m.
jandrobard says... #11
The reason Abzan is played so much is not because of a few extremely broken cards, but because of a lot of very good cards. There are multiple archetypes in abzan colors, as TurboFagoot said, all of them viable.
May 4, 2015 12:26 p.m.
AngelicCookies says... #12
I mean, I don't mean to double post, but you must realize the decks in this format on average are the strongest since Caw-Blade. Khans Block in general pretty much eclipses most blocks on sheer power level as far as modern sets go. A reminder; this is the first Standard format ever that's had a card banned or restricted in every format but remain entirely legal in Standard, the closest analog being Mental Misstep, which, let's be honest, is nowhere near the power level of Treasure Cruise. And, on top of that, Dig Through Time is also seen as entirely normal as a card in this format while it's sitting comfortably on the banned list in modern and is being looked at for banned/restricted lists in legacy and vintage. We've had people in the area having success in modern by playing Atarka Red but swapping in Goblin Guide, Lightning Bolt, Lava Spike, and Stomping Ground. This a golden age for power Magic.
May 4, 2015 12:36 p.m.
jandrobard says... #13
AngelicCookies Very good point. Standard has buckets of power cards. It's like the stars aligned, putting the jankiest cards from R&D's "leftover ideas from Urza's block that we're distributing evenly" folder into one standard.
May 4, 2015 12:44 p.m.
Patrick Sullivan and Cedric Phillips keep saying this : it's either you're playing Esper Dragons or you're trying to beat Esper Dragons.
Ways to beat Esper dragons : Abzan Aggro, Heroic, Atarka Red and Deathmist Raptor + Den Protector shenanigans.
Decks we see in top 8s : The above
May 4, 2015 1:30 p.m.
doctorsmegma says... #15
I dont think Abzan is all that hard to beat honestly. And I dont think thaf Siege Rhino is strong enough to be banned either. There are so many cards now which can respond to anything an Abzan deck has but what it comes down to is a proper sideboard. I definitely think that Abzan is thr best Aggro deck in the format but by no means good enough to ban cards.
I like @angeliccookies point about Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise. If anything is 'broken' its those cards. The ban in other formats is an indication of that. Blue cards really have a lot of power than before in my opinion and thats why Mardu and R/W is completely dead when only a few months ago they were relevant.
May 4, 2015 1:45 p.m.
doctorsmegma says... #16
Not to mention aggro/tokens as a whole suffer right now because of all the board wipes. End Hostilities Anger of the Gods Crux of Fate Drown in Sorrow which are colors that are run in every deck.
Esper has Crux of Fate End Hostilities Drown in Sorrow in compination with the Treasure CruiseAnticipateDig Through Time it's impossible to get anything on the board for more than 2 turns.
Jeskai gets all the board wipes. So that's why it's gotten more popular.
Mardu relies heavily on Butcher of the Horde which is core card in the colors like Siege Rhino but he's terrible now. Stoke the Flames kills it, it loses a lot of play. Siege Rhino can be removed very easily too but a Stoke the Flames wont kill it.
Mardu uses tokens, Bloodsoaked Champion Goblin Rabblemaster as other core components to the deck which all are useless after game 1 because the opponent sideboarded in 3-5 board wipes. And now with Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow. Forget it. A Drown in Sorrow wont kill a Siege Rhino Courser of Kruphix Fleecemane Lion Deathmist Raptor
Same goes for R/W aggro and Jeskai. Why do you think Monastery Mentor isn't as relevant anymore? The only reason he won't dip down too low is because he is still semi-used and could be deadly when the new set drops. Goblin Rabblemaster is modern relevant so he won't drop either.
May 4, 2015 2:10 p.m.
just because Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time are banned in other formats doesn't make khans block or the current standard the strongest ever. they are both good cards, but Treasure Cruise is especially fair in standard compared to older formats because there are way less cheap cantrip spells in standard.
theros block seemed less powerful than khans, but i think innistrad and rtr were both better in terms of eternal playable cards.
as far as standard decks it's a little tough to mentally comapre, but using comparison of "best" decks i would think a current standard abzan deck would probably lose to an innistrad-standard junk reanimator deck running Thragtusk and Unburial Rites. dragon control is a great deck in the current standard, but it doesn't have access to Azorius Charm, Supreme Verdict, AEtherling or Sphinx's Revelation that rtr age control decks had.
it all ebbs and flows, and i agree khans block is more powerful than theros, but i don't think blanket statements like "decks in this format on average are the strongest since Caw-Blade" or "Khans Block in general pretty much eclipses most blocks on sheer power level as far as modern sets go" are valid.
and my opinion on the OP is that standard is fine, diverse enough and not broken.
May 4, 2015 2:10 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #18
Blue is more powerful now than it has been in the past? Ummm.....wut....
Sphinx's Revelation was pretty imposing....hell, you could go all the way back to the beginning and find time walk, ancestral recall, timetwister. In between you have things like jace the wallet sculptor and force of will. Blue is arguably the weakest it has been in a while. At the same time, it is still viable because everything is on a relatively equal power level at the moment
May 4, 2015 3 p.m.
AngelicCookies says... #19
@shuflw Current blue is made to always have mana up. Unlike UW Control of the last standard, who would need to tap out or otherwise leave themselves vulnerable in a counter war to resolve a Sphinx's Revelation, this format instead has Dig Through Time and Dragonlord's Prerogative which, while not as good at getting sheer card advantage, also allow Control decks to always have answers up. And on eternal playability, RTR had Voice of Resurgence, Deathrite Shaman, and Abrupt Decay as staples with fringe play of Sphinx's Revelation and Supreme Verdict in control lists and Rest in Peace, Rakdos Charm, and Detention Sphere for sideboards. In Innistrad there was Liliana of the Veil, Snapcaster Mage, Geist of Saint Traft, Delver of Secrets Flip, Griselbrand, Omniscience, and Restoration Angel, yes, but in Khan of Tarkir alone you get Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Murderous Cut, Monastery Swiftspear, Siege Rhino, Become Immense, and Jeskai Ascendancy as cards which have impacted the meta game of every format as far back as vintage. Then you consider how the most popular deck in online vintage right now is Monastery Mentor-based swarm decks and some of the best modern decks are embracing Tasigur, the Golden Fang and even Gurmag Angler, Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit, Anticipate to a minor extent, Atarka's Command, Collected Company, the modern legal reprinting of the Onslaught fetches, and to a lesser extent Zurgo Bellstriker. Heck, someone just top 8'ed a Modern IQ with Dragonlord Ojutai, Valorous Stance, and Silumgar's Scorn in their list. Khans block is insane.
May 4, 2015 3:58 p.m.
AngelicCookies says... #20
The reason the current Blue decks, which about as good as the Sphinx's Rev decks of RTR block standard, are not dominant is because every deck has insane cards instead of just three or four decks like in RTR block. It's also a testament to the power of the block that I forgot about Ugin, the Spirit Dragon in modern tron and MUD in older formats as well as not even touching on Stubborn Denial, which has seen some modern usage.
May 4, 2015 4:10 p.m.
You are wrong though because the strongest standard was INN / RTR which is essentially all of an abzan deck bar a few cards.
Khans has some really good examples but they are isolated. INN / RTR propped up a lot of archetypes - control with snappy, delver with delver, abzan with liliana. It made modern.
May 4, 2015 4:34 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #22
No. Inn/rtr or even rtr/theros blue decks were way more powerful. I don't think there is even a comparison. Ask any player to choose between the two and they would choose the one with revelation. No question about it. Th wrath was better, the card draw was better, jace was better, the mana was better. After rtr rotated out, Stanislav Cifka, who top 8 ed the ktk pro tour with u/b control, went so far as to say "control is dead"
May 4, 2015 5:06 p.m.
jandrobard says... #23
ChiefBell Also, it brought back Jund as a tier 1 standard deck.
May 4, 2015 5:13 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #24
Jund monsters was tier 1 with rtr/theros. It doesn't see much play at all right now
May 4, 2015 5:19 p.m.
piling on to what others have said, innistrad and rtr blocks provided some of the cornerstone cards of modern and very strong cards in other eternal formats. Snapcaster Mage, Liliana of the Veil, Abrupt Decay, Delver of Secrets Flip are all modern staples now. some of the cards from khans block (aside from Treasure Cruise which proved its brokenness and maybe Monastery Mentor which is comparable to Young Pyromancer could potentially end up being lasting eternal players, but you can't just declare that now without years of proof to back it up. you listed some strong khans cards along with a bunch of fringe and/or testable cards. other sets have had plenty of those as well right after release. people like to jam fun new cards into eternal decks, it's what keeps those formats fun while staying familiar.
you also mentioned khans reprinting allied fetchlands while neglecting rtr block reprinting the full cycle of shocklands.
again, i agree that ktk block has (re)printed some exciting cards that have already influenced both standard and eternal formats. that is (hopefully) proof of good design by wizards pushing the envelope with interesting ideas. it isn't proof of the current standard being stronger than other standards, or the current block being the strongest of recent history.
May 4, 2015 6:20 p.m.
FreddyFlash311 says... #26
I can't believe no one mentioned the like hands down best deck of last Standard, or perchance the entirety of MTG ever- Maze's End
It must have been such a heinous scourge that it burnt out all immediate thoughts of it's evilness. When a deck can make Mono Black cry and want it's teddy bear then you know there's some issues right?
For real though, Khans block is nicely balanced. It's not perfect but it's a damn well done block, and it's still not solved as evidenced by how the results keep changing. It's not broken. Nor is Modern. Thank you.
May 4, 2015 11:02 p.m.
AngelicCookies says... #27
@shuflw The shocks were already in Modern. The Onslaught fetches were not. You also neglected to mention Monastery Swiftspear, Become Immense, and Siege Rhino, which have become modern staples of Burn/Delver, Infect, and Junk respectively, and each of which have won multiple top 8's, top 4's, and even large tournaments since being printed.
People have gone so far as to call Junk decks "Siege Rhino" decks in modern. Liliana of the Veil hasn't been that way for years. In addition, Siege Rhino is so good it made people stop playing Combo Pod and shift to value pod because 3-4 Siege Rhinos where usually good enough to beat any "fair" deck. Meanwhile Swiftspear is basically Goblin Guide 5-8 and Become Immense pushed UG Infect over the edge.
Freddie makes a good point about the balance of Standard though; this is a format where you can play anything.
May 5, 2015 12:17 a.m.
the onslaught fetches didn't revolutionize modern manabases, they just made zendikar fetches less vital/expensive.
i neglected to mention a lot of cards in my post because you listed most of them in yours. all three sets we are comparing have playable cards for eternal formats. yay.
JWiley129 says... #2
They picked that semifinals match because it had Bead Nelson, not because of the Abzan mirror. That said, I believe Esper dragons won GP Sao Paulo, so the metagame isn't busted yet.
May 4, 2015 10:23 a.m.