Kozilek/Ulamog question
Standard forum
Posted on Jan. 28, 2016, 4:37 p.m. by Jhunter428
So, I have a question regarding Kozilek,The Great Distortion and Ulamog,The Ceaseless Hunger. Now people seem to not be so high on Kozilek from my local area, but my question is: Couldn't playing Ulamog and then Kozilek the next turn basically be a win condition? Killing your opponents two biggest threats, then refilling your hand,along with a living counter spell seems to fit the idea of a win con. I'm still fairly new to the competitive scene, so don't get too offended if this is a bad question. :P
Jhunter428 says... #3
logansullivan Yeah, that always needs to be taken into account! It sounded good in my head, so I thought I'd see what others thought
January 28, 2016 4:45 p.m.
The problem is Kozilek is very situational and requires colorless mana and can be killed easily unlike Ulamog, plus in your situation you need to ahve both in hand, the means to cast them, 2 colorless mana for Kozilek and few cards in hand to get some good value.
Meanwhile Ulamog is very straightforward, even if they counter/exile it you get a 3 for 1 trade.
January 28, 2016 4:46 p.m.
You could just run Ulamog. I think I'd much rather cash in Ulamog, exile two things, attack, exile a crap ton of cards, then cast a second Ulamog. More value than Ulamog+Kozilek.
January 28, 2016 4:57 p.m.
Jhunter428 says... #6
Ixidron I have come to find out mana ramp is fairly easy to achieve, but there aren't many cards that I know of that allow you to search for big creatures from the library, so that would obviously be the issue in that situation. Looking at Kozilek, it just seems like He's a finisher compared to Ulamog, who can be a semi board wipe, which is where my question came in. thanks for the response!
January 28, 2016 4:59 p.m.
First of all:
logansullivan - It isn't slow. You can assemble 10 or more mana on turn 5 in the current Standard. If you think that is slow then you've been playing/watching too many Atarka Red games.
Secondly:
Jhunter428 You have an easy way to get your creatures and ramp. From Beyond. Turn 3 playable. Gives you colorless mana - to counter Ixidron's point on colorless mana. You're welcome.
The current power level of ramp is misunderstood by some people in this thread I feel.
The one thing I can agree on is what TheDevicer said. I would rather cast a Newlamog, swing with a Newlamog, and then cast another Newlamog as compared to a Newlamog followed by a Kozi.
January 28, 2016 5:16 p.m.
Yes and no... I don't know the scene of standard, so there, I can't answer the question for you... But in modern... There are a few things to consider.
Ulamog: So Ulamog is removal and mill on a 10/10 indestrucible for 10 mana. If you're not trying to mill and your enemy isn't playing storm, the mill is completely useless as this won't make you win. The removal is great, but for 10 mana, that isn't going to be the end and be all to win with. If you were to be at 10 mana, removing 2 permanents would be possible by other means. Left is a 10/10 indestructible. A fine beater, but stopped by a 0/1. Combined, it's great, but alternatives are better because building to 10 mana is something your deck must be built around if you actually want to win with something like that.
Kozilek: So... Refilling your hand is great... With some decks that is. Some decks can keep the hand filled by themselves. The other Kozilek that makes you draw 4 cards generally gives better draw for the worth. The menace is just silly. The Counterspell is however a really creative thing to do. A deck was made out of Counterbalance and a similar strategy, however, you'll have to discard a card each time and you'll need to have cards with the same converted mana cost as the one to be countered and as so, you'll likely not have too many spells you can counter. Kozilek is fine, but his draw is inconsistent, his menace is unneeded and his counterspells work, but only just. He is also killable and that's just a major problem if you are to use him as a win-con.
They're both quite decent, but the fact is they probably won't win you the game because you have to build your deck around spawning them and if that's the case you'd be better off spawning the old ones.
January 28, 2016 5:28 p.m.
logansullivan says... #9
TMBRLZ if you can get 10 mana by turn 5 consistently then enlighten me because if it isn't consistent then it isn't worth playing
January 28, 2016 5:49 p.m.
ninjaclevs13 says... #10
taurbeer the mill will absolutely win you the game. If your opponent has no card to draw at the beginning of their turn, they lose. Thus Ulamog essentially wins the game in 3 turns against most decks.
January 28, 2016 6:14 p.m.
So let's say you got the 10 mana by turn 5... You can attack by turn 6, attack once again turn 7 and then turn 8 you win... I don't know about the meta where you are, but getting to turn 8 doesn't happen near me unless at least one deck is control... And Ulamog isn't uncounterable, so if you're playing against control, he won't even make it to the field.
January 28, 2016 6:31 p.m.
Kozilek is inconsistent, unlike Ulamog, with ulamog you'll always get a 2 card advantage, an indestructible creature, which means your opponents must exile it and puts a 3 turn timer on your opponent.
Kozilek draws you a variable amount of cards, gives you an inconsistent counterspell, has no removal resistance and requires colorless mana, which means you must add extra cards like From Beyond.
That's why Ulamog is part of the metagame in both standard and modern formats and Kozilek is not.
January 28, 2016 7:56 p.m.
Jhunter428 says... #13
Ixidron well, you're not wrong about Ulamog, and I may not have a lot of serious experience with competitive play, but i'm willing to bet people will underestimate Kozilek. You have to give it a shot, and someone will find a way to make him work in the metagame, and while he may not have the indestructible effect, menace and the living counterspell ability will have an impact in some format or another.
January 28, 2016 8:04 p.m.
To help a little with the turn bases for the standard meta. T1 landT2 mana dorkT3 land search (nissa's pilramage or explosive vegetation)T4 conduit of ruinT5 ulamog or kozilek or void winnower.... (you choose, they all hurt)
T6 win
Game 2 rinse/repeat
January 28, 2016 10:57 p.m.
logansullivan - As hawk393 just pointed out it's not that hard to hit 10 mana turn 5. Why do you think Eldrazi ramp is an actual tier archetype right now?
You can assemble four mana by turn 3 as long as you hit the dork on turn 2 (Rattleclaw Mystic/Leaf Gilder/Whisperer of the Wilds). So there's between 8 to 12 potential chances to hit that dork in your deck.
With your four mana on turn 3 you can play Nissa's Pilgrimage or Explosive Vegetation or From Beyond. Hell you could play two more dorks if you felt like it. There's numerous options and if you're playing ramp you're going to be playing between 3 and 4 of at least two of these cards. That's a potential 6 to 12 chances for a good ramp option. Most ideally you hit the Explosive Vegetation.
By turn 4 you have a maximum potential of seven mana in pool. Needless to say you have a lot of options. Consider you've been thinning land out of your library so your consistency to draw spell cards goes up. You could play more land ramp spells or play something like a Conduit of Ruin or even play one of the not quite as big but still dangerous Eldrazi. Maybe Thought-Knot Seer and a Nissa's Pilgrimage or throw down a Reality Smasher.
There's only a handful of simple straightforward pieces you need for an Eldrazi ramp deck and plenty of tools to find you an Ulamog, who even if he doesn't resolve, a turn 5 or 6 (EXILE TWO LANDS AND/OR THREATS) can set your opponent back tremendously.
Who he is as a creature isn't even the major part. It's the fact that he exiles two things on CAST. The way ramp decks are designed you'll have no problem finding a second one should the first one not resolve.
So to all you naysayers I say quit naying.
January 29, 2016 11:45 a.m.
logansullivan says... #16
TMBRLZ thank you I did not know that it was an actual strategy I mostly follow modern and I haven't noticed that much good ramp in standard
January 29, 2016 12:03 p.m.
Jhunter428 says... #18
hawk393 I am going to defend the new Kozilek for a second here. I know Newlamog is probably going to win me more games, but Kozilek can be a game winner too, right? Refilling your hand, especially in ramp/aggressive decks where your hand won't be full a lot means card advantage.
Also, a 12/12 with menace isn't something to sneeze at.
Finally, he's a living counterspell, which, combined with the hand refill, you have about a 70%-80% chance to counter a potential bounce or kill spell as soon as Kozilek comes into play!
That's why I think together, Ulamog and Kozilek can close out games if you're lucky enough to get them back to back.
Either way, thanks for the responses!
January 29, 2016 12:45 p.m.
To discuss the matter of Kozi, I wouldn't use a Kozilek, the Great Distortion except in a control deck. Not a ramp deck. Getting him out as fast as possible doesn't really do as much good as an Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger.
Esper control wincondition. That'd be my only use for him. But maybe I'm being narrow minded on the idea.
January 29, 2016 12:56 p.m.
Jhunter428 says... #20
TMBRLZ Yeah, I was thinking of a more control type idea for him, but the idea of getting him out after Ulamog bombs your opponent seems like a good way to break your opponents side of the board. Not only do you have two big monsters, but they're almost unstoppable together because one is indestructible, while the other can counter your opponents spells more than half the time. My whole idea was based off getting Kozi out AFTER ulamog hits the field and does his thing :P
January 29, 2016 1 p.m.
Understandable, although Newlamog himself is enough to basically say "I win." Some people would call Kozi a "win-more" in that regard. AKA - Ultimately unnecessary as a followup.
January 29, 2016 1:20 p.m.
Jhunter428 says... #22
TMBRLZ Ehh, I guess I'm in the minority about Kozilek, but oh well. I still believe he's a viable alternative to Newlamog, and think He'll find his niche somewhere!
January 29, 2016 1:28 p.m.
Jhunter428 says... #23
Also, before I possibly make a huge error at FNM tonight, can I summon Kozilek with something like Spawning Bed?
January 29, 2016 1:43 p.m.
If that was due to the confusion of colorless mana symbols I'll say this:
It's completely impossible to add generic mana into your mana pool. You can have any color (or lack there of) mana be used as generic mana, but you can never add generic mana. So if you have a source that is adding mana without a specified color, then you can assume that it is adding colorless mana.
January 29, 2016 2:16 p.m.
Jhunter428 says... #27
TMBRLZ Thanks for the responses! Well, I decided to throw Kozilek into my blue/white to test those waters. Got the colorless ramp to get him, but he is not the only way to win with this deck, so it shouldn't hurt too much. Think that might work better than the Ulamog/Kozilek combo?
January 29, 2016 5:28 p.m.
Only playtesting will tell.
Share it on the Standard Help forums when you get it pretty enough and see what people say.
January 29, 2016 5:40 p.m.
Jhunter428 says... #29
TMBRLZ Well, in a little update, I put Kozilek in my EDH deck last night, got him out twice. Lost one due to infect (And being too nice with the counterspell ability), and won the third match with him and his counterspell ability. The second match, my opponent played a card that made us both discard our hands, so I lost him there :P
January 30, 2016 1:53 p.m.
Sorry for the late responses everyone. I am on my phone so for time sake Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger will be designated as 1 and Kozilek, the Great Distortion as 2.
Being a one and two player, I have my feelings about both.You are both right In that They have their specific decks I should go in, but that does not mean that 2 cannot go In a green ramp deck. I do believeThat one is better suited for itAnd yes to does work a lot better in a control back. But I do have a green ramp deck that has both in it and it works very well. But placing one after the other is not the way to go.Throw one down And see what your opponent does, let him swing a couple times to win Or get removed. Now that your opponent has eaten one of their removal spells Throw down to unlock the game. Because yes, while green ramp is an aggro deck At heart, playing it smart And forcing your opponent into a Play they don't want to do Allows you to +Every turn after that.
Now on the flip side of that,2 is great Better control deck Where ramp is easily viable.At the same time, He is the most useless counterspell you will ever have!I say this for many reasons, but the two big ones All that you will always have a hand in control, And you will always have an alternate win con. I would never want to pay 10 For a living counter, when I already have three or four in my hand.You said Esper control, But if I am running back control deck Why not just sayDragonlord and call it a day. Now I do say That I have played That's where he is in the deck, And it is very scary to see, but let's face it You have already lost by then anyway, unless you yourself are playing a mirror match.
Back to the green ramp deck, if you are finding aHard time placing Something in that spot. I would say to run D twins Or void winnower.
I do however think Kozelek Would be beautiful In an EDH deck, It really doesn't matter which color, Just really any that is controlling more than Other things.
On to the discussion about land,Because we can no longer float ColorsInto colorless.Colorless mana is now being designated as Wastes And anything else that produces a colorless mana symbol.Being said, my best recommendation Would be to add cards likeEye of Ugin And Mage ring network
Once again, I apologize as I was on my phone So please excuse any typos And misspellings.
January 30, 2016 2:24 p.m.
Jhunter428 says... #31
hawk393 Kozilek for sure worked great for me in EDH last night! I've seen a few ideas for him in standard, like ramp and esper control, but what one idea that I think could make him more viable in standard is reanimation. I've heard people call him one of the best reanimation targets in the game.
January 30, 2016 2:29 p.m.
I don't disagree with your statement of Reanimator, but aside from being a living counterspell in a black deck I'm not exactly sure about Him being the best. Mostly because he is legendary, meaning he can't be the target from Lily. But he can be the target of The 5 cost Reanimator spells.Then again, who does not want a 1212 by turn 5... Then again, I have not done a Reanimator deck since the original Titans. So I have no real right to comment on that end of the spectrum.
January 30, 2016 2:51 p.m.
Jhunter428 says... #33
hawk393 Turn 5 Kozilek would certainly help shut down a game, wouldn't it? I played reanimator both in EDH and standard a few months back, and it was alright, just a bit challenging for me at the time. Before this gets too off topic, with my experience last night, I stuck Kozilek in my blue/white EDH deck, had gotten him out twice, and aside from being too passive with my first opponent, he did great for me. I stand by my opinion of him being undervalued at this time. At least in EDH, Kozilek is absolutely better than Newlamog, in my experience. With Ulamog, I would get him out, and he'd be dealt with fast.
Kozilek, however, did wonders on all fronts. I was behind and ahead when I got him out, and while I lost one game, I gave myself a chance both times. My stance on him being a win condition is changed though, he can't win you games alone, but with a little help, he can absolutely change the state of the game.
January 30, 2016 3:06 p.m.
Jhunter428 says... #35
TheDevicer He worked with my deck, but as I said, it wasn't just him that helped me win.
January 30, 2016 3:10 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #36
I play 3x Ulamog and 1x Kozilek in my ramp deck. Having 1 Koz to search up or protect yourself from Infinite Obliteration is the way to go.
logansullivan says... #2
It's just extremely slow so it's not a great win con
January 28, 2016 4:42 p.m.