Let's talk about esper control
Standard forum
Posted on Dec. 16, 2013, 10:34 p.m. by Apoptosis
After a month of insane amounts of work, I'm back to thinking about esper control decks. I never quite had mine figured out so I'm looking at some of the top 8 decks to see what's currently placing well. So I came across this little gem:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6151&d=235527
and would like to discuss it. This is not my deck and I'm not looking for deck help. I want to discuss:
1. How best to pilot it (ok this seems the same as others)
2. How it's different then other esper builds, does that make it special
3. Sideboard selection
4. How has the meta changed over the last month (if at all)?
The deck seems pretty solid and only uses AEtherling for a win-con, has tons of removal, draw, and some denial. ( It has a smoother curve then what I had in my build: Heisenberg (which needs to be reworked - a lot!))
First, why no Elspeth, Sun's Champion ? Just not necessary?
Second, dimir chram seems weird. I've never used it. Why would that be in there as a one of?
Third, so is the consensus that Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver just doesn't work consistently enough?
Fourth, it's the sideboard I also want to discuss, as it seems to be a bit different then what I would expect (to some degree). Basically how do you see the sideboard being used? Here it is:
1 Doom Blade
1 Pithing Needle
3 Pack Rat
3 Gainsay
3 Fiendslayer Paladin
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Shrivel
What is Pack Rat in there for? That makes no sense to me. I get it in MBD, but when would that come in?
I'm not sure I get Shrivel . Is that MUD for elemental tokens or is that for Soldier of the Pantheon ?
I've never been a fan of Pithing Needle , but acknowledge I need to learn to use it more.
I always liked things like Glare of Heresy , Lifebane Zombie , Sin Collector in my sideboard, but it's not here. Why?
I now open the floor for discussion and debate. So... discuss!
gnarlicide says... #3
Pack rat is good against decks that also use pack rat. So against MBD, you can keep them from swinging... Or ship your dead draws to make more.
Shrivel is good against the cards you mentioned and maybe a few more that neither of us are thinking of.
Pitching needle. Use them.. They rule. I drop at least one every time I board. There is always some dude that could use a pitching needle.
Now on to the rest of your post....
Elspeth is no longer in the MB in some that I have seen mostly due to the fact that it is a giant magnet for PW hate.
Dimir charm is better than you think... Especially with scry... Just let it sink in for a second.
Ashiok is nice. And I am not sure why it's not in most builds lately. Personally, I like it better in BUG midrange/control. It fits much better in there.
I hope that helps you, and I hope that it kick starts the discussion for you. Lol.
Later
In all honesty though, I have been playing modern exclusively for the last month and a half. I am getting ready for standard though. My shop is gearing up for their big money standard tournaments this spring and I need some time to work out some kinks and get a solid list pulled together. I am going in the Jund or BUG midrange list.
December 16, 2013 11 p.m.
Just going to answer a whole bunch of these by line item.
The biggest thing I notice is the buffet style removal suite. It's hedging its bets that only a few of the spells will be bad in any given match up.
"First, why no Elspeth, Sun's Champion ? Just not necessary?" Elspeth, Sun's Champion depends on what the meta is like. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a better finisher against green and white decks typically, with decent enough play against MBD. Running no Elspeth, Sun's Champion puts you in a virtual card advantage situation against a lot of decks as their removal litterally becomes worthless, other than fogging AEtherling .
"Second, Dimir Charm seems weird. I've never used it. Why would that be in there as a one of?" Dimir Charm is seeing some play for the same reason Last Breath is. It's targeted removal against most everything in both MBD and MUD, and almost all WWr or WWb creatures. And the other modes are sometimes relevant as well.
"Third, so is the consensus that Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver just doesn't work consistently enough?" Yes, most decks can simply ignore it for several turns. It probably has a home somewhere, just no one has found it yet and records are proving it's currently not in Esper Control.
"What is Pack Rat in there for? That makes no sense to me. I get it in MBD, but when would that come in?" Much like I mentioned earlier, with your opponents removal being terrible it forces them to side it all out. Pack Rat can then come in and steal a game from them since they have no way to answer it. Then it leaves them in an awkward place for G3, if there is one, either they bring removal back in and risk it being dead if you side Pack Rat back out or not. It's a pro-active sideboard plan instead of a reactive one.
"I'm not sure I get Shrivel . Is that MUD for elemental tokens or is that for Soldier of the Pantheon ?" Just aggro in generally, WW and Mono-Red run a lot of 1 toughness creatures, and Esper is traditionally weak to hyper aggressive strategies. A well timed Shrivel can be another sweeper.
"I always liked things like Glare of Heresy , Lifebane Zombie , Sin Collector in my sideboard, but it's not here. Why?" I think mostly that those cards don't line up as well against the decks you really care about, and this list would rather have pro-active sideboard cards or versatile sideboard cards. For instance, Glare of Heresy and Lifebane Zombie might come in against various white decks, but you already have Blood Baron of Vizkopa for that, which is also good against the black decks. Likewise Sin Collector is good in the control mirror, but Gainsay let's you fight counter wars well enough and plays really well against MUD as well.
December 16, 2013 11:03 p.m.
Just saying, this is the kind of deck where I would want a full set of Thoughtseize . While it's true that trading cards 1-for-1 isn't where this deck wants to be, it's the information that Thoughtseize gives you that makes it so important. With only 1 each of so many of your answers, knowing the right time is to fire them off is crucial. Knowing things like whether or not your D-Sphere could potentially 2-for-1 if you hold it an extra turn or two, whether or not you can afford to wait on your Verdict, or what forthcoming plays you can't allow to resolve could mean the difference between winning and losing games.
December 16, 2013 11:30 p.m.
Ok, I'm coming around on Pack Rat , I can see how one can use it to shut down Desecration Demon in MBD, but your own rats are vulnerable to Detention Sphere and Supreme Verdict ... I guess the point is that you get to chose when you use it and I understand the proactive aspect of bringing it in after they side out their removal. But what other matches does it come in against? MUD? WW? Probably not RDW. What comes out? Ugh... I want to think this out some more, but am too tired right now and I can feel the wheels coming undone... Usually, I want to sideboard similar CMC spells, unless I'm up against aggro and know I need to tighten my curve. Anyway... to be continued. Bed for me.
gufymike says... #2
2, It doesn't run Divination and Elspeth, Sun's Champion , it's built to play in a meta of heavy creatures in the devotion decks r/g midrange and mono-red devotion. It only wants to win by AEtherling and keep a clear board state. Dimir Charm counters a sorcery, mills two and allows you to set up the opponents next draw, finally desroys a creature of power or 2 or less. none of these are bad to have, the middle mode, I like late game, The last mode, early game, the other mode, just to mess with a mirrors Divination . Dimir Charm is a severely underrated card for it's uses. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is a trap card, it's not that great or powerful over all. It's best used against certain match ups. But still just doesn't play out as expected a lot.
3 (really 4) meta is relatively the same, Mono-B/U, U/W control, esper control(occassionally), There is mono-B splashing white for Blood Baron of Vizkopa and Sin Collector , there is r/g midrange (but going down in numbers for the devotion lists), u/w/r and r/w aggro are still trying to make things work.
4 (really 3). (skipped for last). Pack Rat is a card you play or don't and lose to it. It's there to answer other Pack Rat and swarm, control and mid-range decks. it's black stops Doom Blade (overrated removal) and other things in the mono-B matchup.
Shrivel is an answer to Elspeth, Sun's Champion , Assemble the Legion , Master of Waves tokens and aggro decks running 2/1's and the like.
Learn to use Pithing Needle if you don't you're going to have a bad time. It's the answer to AEtherling , planeswalkers, Scavenging Ooze , Pack Rat and other creatures.
Glare of Heresy , Lifebane Zombie and Sin Collector are good cards, but are not good in esper, which has a ton more well rounded answers, they are best used in the builds that do not have the reach that esper does.
As for it used, Thoughtseize , Gainsay , Pack Rat and Pithing Needle in the control and mono-U matchup. Though I prefer Swan Song in Gainsay spot
mono-B, Blood Baron of Vizkopa , Pack Rat , Fiendslayer Paladin , Pithing Needle . I wouldn't bring in the Thoughtseize because it's not that important in this matchup. But they could have. tldr;
This sideboard is setup for the control (U/W-Esper) mirror and mono-B/U devotion decks he/she expected and was correct in guessing. It is setup for the meta he/she was expecting.
December 16, 2013 10:58 p.m.