Looking Back: Why Weren't the Tribes Equal?
Standard forum
Posted on March 1, 2016, 6:25 p.m. by HairyManBack
Thomas Jefferson made the statement, "All men are created equal."
Many older wise men I've spoken with say that's not entirely accurate. Each is unique with their own weaknesses and strengths. However, over-all some are just greater in more ways. This is not a bad or good thing. But just is.
Kept up with the MTG Top 8 since you saw our tribes in action?
- Abzan
- Jeskai
- Mardu
- Temur
- Sultai
If we could make over-all power ratings this number list wouldn't be close (in a given sense of the word.)
Why didn't Temur give Savage Knuckleblade trample or subversion? Why did Abzan get broken cards (Siege Rhino) and more value based on other Standard cards? How come I didn't see players stress Sultai to make a run (it had it's moments early on). Did Wizards want this meta to evolve or is this just how people copy/paste ideas and run with them?
Very curious to hear other peoples thoughts on this.
Note: I recognize the "weaker" tribes have been made very well and have made 1st place a lot of times. But I'm painting quite a broad brush stroke here. Hope we can put that into context when talking.
Not worth discussing whatsoever, IMO, but in essence it's extremely hard to balance a game like Magic.
To expand, Wizards DOES NOT set out to break the format. R&D DOES NOT attempt to force a Standard meta. When they set out to create a set, their first priority is to create a set that plays well in a limited environment, then they test the interactions with Standard. Siege Rhino was originally a 4/4 Trample w/ Loxodon Smiter's ability in order to fight against Liliana of the Veil, who was originally going to be in M15. When she was cut, they turned the Rhino into a 4/5, removed its original clause, found it was underperforming, and adjusted accordingly, adding its ETB rider. Siege Rhino turned out to be a good card. Oops. It's not like Maro decided one day that Abzan should be ridiculously strong and to break KTK, more so that the pros found out that Abzan was strong and just ran with it.
March 1, 2016 6:44 p.m.
pumpkinwavy says... #4
Savage Knuckleblade was never the problem for temur, it was the other (or lack) good creatures and the awkwardness of the colour combination that made temur never quite make it. As JA14732, there was never the intention to make each of the five clans be the five tier 1 standard decks. The clans were only prominent in one set, and the power level in that set would have to be HUGE to create a meta like that (admittedly, khans WAS very powerful). Each clan actually made a viable deck, which is impressive enough, although not all of them became tier 1.
One thing I've noticed is how black and green have been really powerful in standard over the last couple of rotations. It seems like the 'best deck' of the format has almost always had black in it, despite black's removal becoming worse, and green has a had a very high number of powerful cards printed. I don't know if this is right for this thread though, I'm considering creating a new thread to talk about this.
March 1, 2016 7:49 p.m.
HairyManBack says... #5
Yeah I did consider that Wizards gotta consider all cards in Magic when printing a new set. I think I was coming from the fact more players go with Standard than Modern and Legacy, etc. So I was left scratching my head.
JA1 - It's weird you said it's not worth discussing but then talked much about it. I did get a lot out of what you said about Rhino. Can definitely see what they were doing with Abzan in Modern. Which was important.
Emipre - I'm not really sure if you got what I'm asking. But I think you do. Cards simply play better together than others. My thinking is why didn't Wizards throw a bone to Temur and Sultai more? Savage Knuckleblade and Temur Charm could of been a tad more competitive for the meta. Sidisi, Brood Tyrant could been a bit better. Like deathtouch or a 3/4 body. I know there's others examples. I'm sure more will come to mind
March 1, 2016 7:57 p.m.
HairyManBack says... #6
pumpkinwavy - I heavily agree on all your points. You've really helped me to grasp what I was questioning about. Thanks a lot!
March 1, 2016 7:59 p.m.
Semantics, but these aren't tribes, they're clans.
Merfolk is a tribe, goblins are a tribe. Jeskai is a clan.
March 1, 2016 8:04 p.m.
HairyManBack, my problem is when people start referring to things as overpowered or broken. The reason why I say it's not worth mentioning is because it's not really a problem. WOTC makes five or six powerful or synergistic cards and the standard meta develops around them. Blame the pros for abusing these cards, not WOTC for creating them.
March 1, 2016 8:06 p.m.
And for the record, Sidisi Whip was one of the strongest decks in all of Theros-Khans standard, and Mardu was almost non-existent in that format. The only Khans clans that stayed consistently powerful were Abzan and Jeskai.
Abzan remained powerful because black contained all of the best removal spells combined with powerful creatures in the 3- to 5-drop slots. Jeskai remained powerful because of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Jeskai Ascendancy before that. Mantis Rider wasn't even heavily played until BFZ came on the scene and made it easier to consistently hit the mana requirements.
March 1, 2016 8:10 p.m.
HairyManBack says... #10
Thanks for the clan clarification jhawk. It would make me sound a bit more like I know what I'm talking about. :) Definitely true on Whip and Sidisi like I eluded to in the initial thread. It was a fun deck I played.
JA1 - I see what your saying. Glad u clarified on that. Wasn't ever blaming anyone however. Asking questions.
March 1, 2016 8:42 p.m.
HairyManBack says... #11
I always wanted Temur to on top. * cry a single tear *. It's just the Timmy player in me.
March 1, 2016 8:46 p.m. Edited.
Yeah I'd say Abzan first then jeskai then sultai and Mardu are tied because they both only did things for half the time they were in standard and temur is wayyyyyyy at the bottom because there was literally no reason to ever play it. Zero. To be fair temur delver is playable in legacy so at least it's good in other formats, something mardu never really was.
March 1, 2016 9:31 p.m.
Hey, there were as many Savage Knuckleblades as Siege Rhinos in the top 8 at GP Houston, right?
March 1, 2016 10:11 p.m.
Is your opening statement meant to say Mantis Rider and Savage Knuckleblade are not balanced cards?Rider is seriously one of the best 3 drops in the format. It's colors are what stops it's being a thing right now I think. The decks that play those colors don't want an aggro 3 drop. It suck in my opinion. I have played with Knuckleblades extensively and they are a workhorse creature. No, they don't trample but they dodge lots of removal and most burn. They get bigger. They gets haste. They even doge wipes. They activate all Ferocious triggers very early. I don't think they were meant as a finisher the way you see "they need trample". They always worked for me as a value creature: early threat, cause some triggers, and need to be dealt with. Usually after a Knuck or two hit the board the opponent burns up a lot of gas getting rid of them then your finisher hits. I think Rhino deserves to be the trample monster this time.
March 1, 2016 10:29 p.m.
HairyManBack says... #15
capriom85 I just couldn't find a better pic to capture what i was talking about. But yeah, Knuckleblade is a monster. Especially, if used in the right shell.
March 1, 2016 10:39 p.m.
pumpkinwavy says... #16
capriom85 Doge wipes? Someone please make this a meme.
Also, there were 8 copies of Mantis Rider in the top 8 of gp Houston, and a 4 knuckleblades. No one is saying they are bad cards.
HairyManBack glad that you found my comment helpful. It's cards like Temur Charm, that are a mix of underpowered and conflicting that made all the difference. Temur Charm especially seemed like eachmkde is suited to a different style of deck, and that only works out when the card is powerful enough for that not to matter (like with Ojutai's Command). This isn't the case with Temur Charm.
March 1, 2016 10:45 p.m.
Wait, why is my typo funny enough for a meme? I'm missing something, pumpkinwavy.
HairyManBack, ok I wasn't sure if you meant they were unbalanced specifically or not.
March 2, 2016 7:39 a.m.
HairyManBack says... #18
If Temur Charm had spot removal besides 'fighting' + the counter ability I think it would of dramatically changed Temur. If there's anything I discovered after playing the clan is the removal sucked. However, Stubborn Denial saved my ass more times these past months than the dollar bill being reprinted.
Choose one -
- Do 3 damage to target creature
- Counter target spell unless opponent pays
- Creatures you control get +1/+1 and trample (or target creature +2/+2 and trample if earlier is too powerful)
Is that too much to ask for for this poor little Timmy player?
March 2, 2016 5:07 p.m.
Well that first mode would just be a worse Mardu Charm damage mode...
March 2, 2016 5:42 p.m.
HairyManBack says... #20
That's apples to oranges. RWB is a different animal.
March 2, 2016 6:32 p.m.
HairyManBack says... #22
Yeah. Still could of kicked it up a notch with Temur charm. I'm pretty sure Wizards just doesn't like me.
VampireArmy says... #2
Some cards just play better together.
For example : tasigoyf and rhino play together very nicely as cheap to castable threats with very real bodies while Monastery Swiftspear Seeker of the Way and to a lesser extent grand master played better with the support of mardu spells.
It came down to chance really.
March 1, 2016 6:38 p.m.