M14 Spoilers: Savage Summoning
Standard forum
Posted on May 22, 2013, 10:01 p.m. by Cobthecobbler
I see this being a card that is very heavily abused in many formats. For one green, you get:
- Instant Speed
- The spell itself is uncounterable
- The next creature spell you play has flash
- That creature cannot be countered
- It comes in with a +1+1 counter
...Why is it only a rare? I see this being the heart of a lot of Standard decks post-rotation.
P.S. I think M14 is trying to slow down the meta, which is pretty good. It's a bit too fast right now. Just about every mythic/rare is 4/5+ CMC, and the uncommons are barely an exception.
Leave your thoughts below.
Well this will be interesting because I honestly think it's a neigh unplayable trap.
Yes, flash, uncounterable, +1/+1 for a single green is a cost you'd be happy to tack on to any creature. The problem is you aren't tacking it on to a creature you're using a whole other card for it. Short of flashing in a blocker, it's almost impossible to get a card out of this, and if you're flashing in blockers chances are you're not playing against a deck running counters. Heck if they snap kill it, congratulations you've just been 2 for 1'ed. There's a reason why the enchantment decks all revolve around hexproof. You also just turned any bounce spells into 1 for 1s instead of simply tempo hits.
The only time I see this being worth it is to drop some threat that's guaranteed to get you a lot of value if it hits the board, like Sire Of Insanity . Otherwise I'd gladly just have another spell instead.
May 22, 2013 10:30 p.m.
I would use this against Esper Control...Hold back a threat in anticipation of a board wipe and flassh it in so you get a swing before they can react to it again.
May 22, 2013 11:15 p.m.
Lol. The answer to this is Render Silent . Now I know it can't be countered, but render will resolve then they can't cast another spell lol
May 22, 2013 11:20 p.m.
hollandboys says... #7
I like the idea of the card, but there's lots of cards that are good in theory and not great in practice (remember the hype about Aurelia's Fury ?). I'm a huge fan of the flash mechanic and I love green but I'd rather have Yeva, Nature's Herald . Like Slycne said, you are 2 for 1'ing yourself, which is never good. The fact that you only get one use out of it isn't great, especially in a colour without a ton of card draw. I hope it sees some play though, maybe in sideboards
May 22, 2013 11:22 p.m.
Nope, you need to have a legal target to play Render Silent . You can't target an uncounterable spell. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure this is not the answer.
May 22, 2013 11:22 p.m.
Lol. You can totally target an uncounted able spell. It'll just still resolve.
May 22, 2013 11:23 p.m.
hollandboys says... #10
If the card replaced all the uncounterable stuff and the +1/+1 with "draw a card" it would be played in every green deck. As it is, I doubt it will be anywhere to be seen after the first month of new cards
May 22, 2013 11:24 p.m.
hollandboysI rather like Aurelia's Fury . I think the trouble is that it is compared to cards that do things like Bonfire of the Damned . The Fury was never meant to be that, in my opinion. Does it wipe the board? Maybe if you have a matchup against 1/1 tokens, but generally no. However, it can finish an opponent off in a stalemate situation or "clear" the board to get in that last swing. Naya Zoo can benefit from it with all the threats it can produce and then boom...drop a Fury after Aurelia herself comes to the aprty and its game over. 2 unanswerable combats from the likes of Loxodon Smiter , Thragtusk , and Advent of the Wurm . Is it the best card out there right now? Heck no...but I still think the hype was justified for what it does do.
May 22, 2013 11:28 p.m.
Ok, so I was wrong about the Render Silent . That rule makes no sense, but it is what it is. So u/w has an aswer to this. But can't you flash the creature in still in response or is it a no go becasue the spell needs to resolve first which would make Render Silent resolve before you play the creature?
May 22, 2013 11:31 p.m.
hollandboys says... #13
Also, Render Silent isn't run. And this card won't change standard enough that it would ever be run over Counterflux
May 22, 2013 11:33 p.m.
Savage summoning would need to resolve first. Since render goes onto the stack ahead of summoning, renders ability happens as summoning resolves.
May 22, 2013 11:34 p.m.
That would be a decent answer to this then, which is a complete curb stomp to my idea of running it against Esper to force a threat onto the board post board wipe. hollandboys: maybe in American Counterflux would be run over Render Silent , but what about Esper or straight Azorius? They can't run Counterflux no matter how much better of a counter it is.
May 22, 2013 11:38 p.m.
hollandboys says... #16
Maybe after rotation it will see a little play but right now Dissipate and Syncopate are being played over it in esper control. We will have to see what counter spells come out in M14 and Theros as to if it actually sees play
May 22, 2013 11:41 p.m.
I like Render Silent , I just wish that it's ability was more relevent. It sems like one of those "good on paper; poor in practice" cards.
May 22, 2013 11:43 p.m.
There might be formats where this card will be good, but standard just isn't it.
May 22, 2013 11:43 p.m.
i'm not too fond of it. you have to play it before you play the creature spell, allowing your opponent to know to keep their counterspell. i guess there's no way to reword it so that a creature at the bottom of the stack can be uncounterable.
May 23, 2013 2:04 a.m.
Xindlepete says... #20
@Tempest: um... The creature IS uncounterable. The card states that. "The next creature card you cast this turn can be cast as though it had flash. THAT SPELL CAN' BE COUNTERED." :P They did take care of that.
May 23, 2013 3:10 a.m.
It's a fun card, but I'm pretty sure there are lots of other cards in a 60-deck creature based deck, that I would rather draw.
May 23, 2013 3:26 a.m.
Seems fun for the right deck alongside Yeva, Nature's Herald and Skylasher .
May 23, 2013 10:43 a.m.
Thats definitely a sick card that ill probably be running in my jund deck for sure, or at least have in the sideboard.It would be nice if the meta slowed down some, that would allow more time to pull off fun combos, instead of the game being finished around turn 5. Its looking like theres going to be 3 planeswalkers in M14, Chandra, Ajani, and Liliana vess, and thats pretty cool too.
May 23, 2013 11:19 a.m.
Xindlepete, i meant if you cast a creature spell, then the opponent counters it, you can't stop the counter with savage summoning because the creature was already cast, therefore making it not the next creature you cast but rather the creature you cast after that. there's no way for you to cast a creature before savage summoning to get the effects of savage summoning onto that creature. it would probably be better if it said something like "target creature spell is uncounterable..."
May 23, 2013 12:52 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #25
When you can flash in a creature at the end of your opponents turn or during their combat phase, you don't have to worry about summoning sickness. That is common knowledge. But when that creature can't be countered and comes in with a counter, now you can block a bigger creature for less mana, you can deal more damage on your next turn, etc. etc.
I see where all of you are going with this, but in practice, using 2 spells to get a desired effect isn't always bad. In an average game, you use maybe 40% of your deck anyway, and the rest just gets scooped up after you win or lose.
Render Silent is a great answer, but no one runs it, like you guys said. I honestly do see your points, and on it's own it's a great card, but in theory. It definitely has use as a replacement to Cavern of Souls to get your game-changer on the board, but it can see use in Aggro, too. Especially decks that abuse counters. It can get a Master Biomancer out for more long-term value, it can nab you an extra card with Prime Speaker Zegana , etc. I think it's a pretty good card to abuse. But like I said, you guys put up good arguments.
May 23, 2013 5:01 p.m.
"I see where all of you are going with this, but in practice, using 2 spells to get a desired effect isn't always bad. In an average game, you use maybe 40% of your deck anyway, and the rest just gets scooped up after you win or lose."
That's not what anyone was concerned about. It's the negative card advantage that's the major drawback here. When it's boiled down Magic is a game about trading resources. I Doom Blade your Grizzly Bears , or you Giant Growth and eat a Hill Giant . These are all one for one trades, you've used one card to deal with one card. Supreme Verdict ing a board full of opponent's creatures gives you much better value for the single card. The game is won by who can more efficiently and effectively use their resources against their opponents.
While in some conditions you may be able to flash in a blocker with Savage Summoning, or the tempo can be worth flashing in while they are tapped out. It will always be a 2 for 1 investment. In most instance you'd rather just have another creature because you're forcing them to have another card to deal with your 2nd creature.
May 23, 2013 9:53 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #27
To be fair, I said using 2 cards to "get a desired effect" not to trade cards. I didn't mean to imply this card was supposed to be used that way.
This card gets out game-changers with no worries, and tacks on a counter as a bonus.
I see other uses, but that's mainly what it is going to be used for.
Is that a better way to voice my opinion?
May 23, 2013 10:12 p.m.
Sure, I also mentioned something similar in my original post. If you're dropping something like Sire Of Insanity or Angel of Serenity that can absolutely warp the game then it could be worth it because these cards can recoup the 2 card investment you put in.
I guess my biggest gripe with the card is that it doesn't work well against the deck it's designed to combat. Control decks these days run relatively few counter spells, but they are chalked full of removal, with less and less of it being sorcery speed, and they will absolutely punish decks for using 2 cards to land 1 threat. Even with Cavern of Souls leaving standard, I don't see counters coming back that much, unless Mana Leak gets reprinted. A counter spell is only useful at a single time, where as removal can be top decked and instantly affect the board.
Flashing in on end step might win you a game every now and then in the control match-up when all they have are Wrath of God -like cards, but I'd rather just have a steady stream of threats that demand them to deal with. This is why cards like Thragtusk have seen so much dominance, because it's the opposite of this card. It takes 2 of their cards to deal with a single Thragtusk .
May 24, 2013 10:41 a.m.
would flashing in Loxodon Smiter make the uncounterables cancel each other out D: Jokes, I know it would be redundant, but a 5 for 4 that's uncounterable and part of many decks now...
May 24, 2013 10:46 a.m.
How about using it with Urban Burgeoning ? It would allow greater utilitazation of that mana source.
May 28, 2013 8:02 p.m.
The real problem with the card is that it's only decent as a sideboard card against Blue control, as the uncountable part is the real strength of the card.
Unfortunately, I have not seen a control deck that does not also use both spot removal and board wipes... So, to make this really work, it would need to be followed by a Hexproof and Indestructible creature, otherwise they are just as likely to have an answer.
Just give me a Skylasher , as it's already uncountable, Flash, and pro-blue for that bounce spot removal.... plus it's just 1 spell instead of 2 to get all of this.
May 29, 2013 8:31 a.m.
speaking of Skylasher during game day, had someone flash one in to block my Voice of Resurgence and with my other creatures out there, I got two 6/6 elementals. Needless to say that was a win for me. He had them there for my Geist of Saint Traft but I didn't have any on the field and I was winning/pressuring him and under 5 points of life at that point.
May 29, 2013 8:56 a.m.
hiddengibbons says... #33
I run Render Silent . I've found that not only does it have the ability to counter a spell, but it also has the ability to end someone's turn for all intents and purposes. Uncounterable spells can be removed from decks or made uncastable. This card has its usefulness, but it basically is an anti-blue card that makes a creature cost one more to cast and requires the playing of two spells just to get one creature out there. I don't think its all that broken. Its kind of like another Autumn's Veil , only it doesn't afford protections from targeted removal and only covers creatures.
May 29, 2013 2:50 p.m.
does anyone think were going to see garruk primal in m14? Im reluctant to trade mine but im not even going to worry about it if it looks like it will be back in M14
May 30, 2013 9:16 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #35
i could see this card working well in flash bant decks i see from time to time. counterspells are the only thing that stops them from flashing your ass apart.
May 31, 2013 12:07 p.m.
Schuesseled Sounds like they should get arrested, flashing is a crime where I live, especially when it includes 'your ass' D: (ok, I tried)
May 31, 2013 12:31 p.m.
grandmaaaaa says... #38
I think flash makes this playable. Just the fact that this is card disadvantage isn't enough to make it bad. Sneaky flash uncounterable creatures are awesome for green, you just have to be casting a creature good enough to merit the card disadvantage.
Also, why are you guys talking about answering this uncounterable spell with counter spells?
May 31, 2013 3:12 p.m.
Xindlepete says... #39
Render Silent effectively stops the player from playing any other spells for that turn. Straight from the Gatherer page for Render Silent :
A spell that cant be countered is a legal target for Render Silent. The spell wont be countered when Render Silent resolves, but that spells controller wont be able to cast spells for the rest of the turn.
Since "Savage Summoning" will have to fully resolve BEFORE you can use it to flash in an uncounterable creature, if you respond with Render Silent , all spells on the stack will resolve. So Render will resolve, attempting to counter "Summoning", but it won't be countered. However, since it did have a legal target, the rest of the spell resolves normally, so the opponent can't play any other spells for that turn. Then "Summoning" resolves, since it can't be countered, but the opponent is now Silence d, so they don't get the bonuses that "Savage Summoning" offer.
May 31, 2013 3:18 p.m.
grandmaaaaa says... #40
Xindlepete Holy shit that's ridiculous. I just assumed Summoning wasn't a legal target. I would love to see this situation actually play out.
May 31, 2013 3:59 p.m.
Xindlepete says... #41
@grandmaaaaa: It's an understandable misunderstanding. If it helps you remember, just think of "can't be countered" like "indestructible". Indestructible creatures/permanents can still be targeted by destroy effects, so the spell resolves normally. However, since "indestructible" says the creature CAN'T be destroyed by the effect, nothing actually happens.
It is the same way with "_ can't be countered by spells or abilities". You can still TARGET them with counterspells, but the spell won't actually be countered. So for counterspells with secondary effects -like Geist Snatch targeting Loxodon Smiter - the spell won't be countered but as long as the target was legal any other effects will work normally. :)
And sidenote- this is why Venser, Shaper Savant is the biggest bad a** among modern creatures- since he RETURNS the card to its owners hand, he gets around the "can't be countered" clause. He doesn't counter anything, he just says "Not right now. Try again next time! :P Na na-na na boo-boo!" XD As far as I'm aware, he is the only card in MTG with that kind of effect.
May 31, 2013 4:09 p.m.
grandmaaaaa says... #42
Xindlepete Thanks for the clarification man! And we wonder why mtg doesn't see mainstream interest.
May 31, 2013 5:54 p.m.
But if someone played this its kinda obvious that you need to be prepared for what come after. Render Silent . My problem with this card is its a giant HEY OVER HERE IM ABOUT TO DROB A BOMB
June 1, 2013 3:21 a.m.
Xindlepete says... #44
Yeah, basically. But the other thing to keep in mind is that "Savage Summoning" can be used as bait. :) Especially in games 2 and 3 when the opponent will realize you have "Savage Summoning", they will likely sideboard Render Silent in, so long as it fits their colors (Bant/Esper mostly). So wait till you get close to the necessary mana to drop your bomb, then cast the "Savage Summoning" to bait out the Render Silent if it's there, and if not you get your bomb with bonuses in tact.
Also to keep in mind, Bant seems to be the most likely to play BOTH Render Silent and "Savage Summoning" in their decklists. Make those obnoxious hexproof 'chant carriers now UNCOUNTERABLE? AND +1/+1 bigger? Heck yes! :D Oh, now you're going to Render Silent me so I don't get a 2/2 uncounterable Invisible Stalker ? HOW DO YOU LIKE IT BUB!?!?!?! Render Silent YOUR Render Silent ! That's enough out of you for this turn. >:P
Granted that's not likely to happen, but it is a sheer numbers game. Some match, somewhere, in the near future, this is almost guaranteed to happen. And when it does, I will laugh and say I told you so! :D
June 1, 2013 3:30 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #45
And remember girls and boys, if a stranger Render Silent 's your savage summoning you can just cast another one is response.
June 1, 2013 3:24 p.m.
That's still 3 spells for 1 though, Xindlepete. I'm guessing a deck that is running counterspells will be happy to trade two of the opposing deck's control tools for one of your own.
June 4, 2013 8:17 p.m.
Xindlepete says... #47
@Dallie: I realize that would be a terrible thing to do in an actual game. I just think it would be funny as hell. Like when the original Silence was printed, every once in awhile you'd get those "dud" turns where it was "During your upkeep I'll cast Silence . You play nothing, is it my turn now?" "Sure, I guess. Pass. During your upkeep I'll cast Silence on YOU. You play nothing, is it my turn?" "sigh* I suppose..."
It just turns the game into a big ol' competetion of "Shut up! My turn now!" "NO! YOU shut up! MY turn now!" XD Funny stuff.
June 4, 2013 8:26 p.m.
@Xindlepete - There are a few other ways of preventing "cannot be countered" spells... not many as reliably as Venser, Shaper Savant however.
Possibility Storm exiles the spell before it can resolve... but it's hard to control.
Nivmagus Elemental can be used, so long as the spell is yours, and is an instant or Sorcery.
Time Stop , and (so long as it's your turn), Sundial of the Infinite , simply stops everything and exiles the stack.
There may be more, but those come to mind first.
June 5, 2013 1:07 p.m.
Just a second. Who's going to board Render Silent in? I can't think of many worse plans than to board in a bad card to utterly fail to counter a card that is merely not very good. Both Savage Summoning and the creature to be flashed in can be cast as responses to Render Silent.
Savage Summoning will probably find a place in a fringe deck that finds some creative use for it that isn't so bad. But generally speaking, 2-for-1's that you play against yourself are bad, particularly when they don't have much value outside of a combat trick or giving a creature pseudo-haste. About the best you can hope to do is make a surprise blocker for a 1-for-1, but if you're doing that you might as well just play a removal spell.
June 5, 2013 2:17 p.m.
Sweet-Nightmare says... #50
Can anybody say uncounterable Sigarda, Host of Herons with Flash? Congratulations, without a boardwipe, my Angel isn't going anywhere and you're on at LEAST a four turn clock, during which I'm probably sitting on a Rootborn Defense.
In short, I can't wait for this card.
Cobthecobbler says... #2
Card here
May 22, 2013 10:06 p.m.