may I seize your thoughts for a moment?
Standard forum
Posted on March 12, 2014, 10:55 a.m. by harrydemon117
It's been a "staple" for almost any deck running black, but in multi-colored decks (namely, 3 colored decks) should it be run in the sideboard or main? At most I run 2-3 swamps so that chances of me having both in my starting 7 are slim.
Since this is the case, I've been wondering if putting it in the sideboard and main decking other cards might make it a bit more consistent. I would bring them in against other midrange/control decks of course. The thought of paying 4 life on turn 1 to use a Thoughtseize is somewhat unsettling to me...
Drawing it later in the game seems bad as you will almost NEVER need it against aggressive decks.
Thoughts?
harrydemon117 says... #3
I'm actually running BUG but the principle still remains. Taking 2-4 early is bad IMO.
I have been contemplating this for awhile and it seems to be the consensus to run them sideboard. monoblack can get away with running them main as they have a lot of swamps to make it easier to do turn 1
March 12, 2014 11:37 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #4
I just didn't want to say I paid $60 for "sideboard cards" lol
March 12, 2014 11:37 a.m.
Sideboard is often what wins matches by turning a neutral/bad matchup into a good/neutral matchup.
Paying $60 for sideboard cards means paying $60 for a huge improvement for your deck.
Personally, I play a BUG infect deck. I have been flipping between running 2x Thoughtseize main... 2x Thoughtsieze side... and no Thoughtsieze at all.
In my experience, I have been finding that 2x Thoughtsieze main seems the best, but that's because I need to go Extreemly fast and "combo' hard. Often, one removal will shut me down. - T1 Thoughtsieze will often mean getting rid of their removal, and letting me get the win on T3-4, rather than waiting and struggling for the setup.
Even playing a fetch, and grabbing an untapped Overgrown Tomb for the Thoughtseize ... causing myself 5 damage on T1... is often better than having my creature removed immediately.
This is of course what is right for my deck yours may be different, and you would need to judge how beneficial it is for your deck, and in your Meta.
I think the question may be, "Am I worried about threats, or am I trying to protect my combo/setup?"
For threats, it's probably better to have versatile answers, and use Thoughtsieze as a sideboard for a proactive response to things you can't main board answer. - For combo/setup, it's a matter of how fast are you going to setup, and how fragile is your setup/combo? Thoughtsieze may be main board for fragile setups, and few other cards for protection.
March 12, 2014 12:17 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #6
At least 50% of the games played in a tournament are post board, often more because it never comes down that every match was 2-0. Nothing wrong with spending money on a sideboard card when you mostly play post-board.
And also nothing wrong with losing three-five life turn one. Yeah it sucks against aggro, but the information gained is valuable. You're not dead until 0 life, so until then, spend those life points as a resource.
March 12, 2014 1:11 p.m.
notamardybum says... #7
The problem with shocking yourself to play thoughtseize turn 1 with a BUG deck is there's no way to gain back the life like Sphinx's Revelation can, I'd wait til either turn 2-3 to play it depending on what your opponent is playing, or just put them all in the sb. Nothing wrong with having a good sideboard.
March 12, 2014 1:18 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #8
Why do you have to gain the life back? Not every match up is aggro, and ideally the other cards in your deck should stop you dropping to zero life and losing the game. Most likely by winning before that can happen.
March 12, 2014 2:16 p.m.
The problem with waiting to cast Thoughtseize is it lets your opponent Thoughtseize you first, or worse counter your Thoughtseize .
If a deck is going to run Thoughtseize it should take advantage of it the way mono-black devotion can, with it's ability to gain back life from Gray Merchant of Asphodel later in the game, as well as cards like Obzedat, Ghost Council and Blood Baron of Vizkopa life spent early can be replenished multiple times over later in the game.
Whereas with esper, their best way to gain back life is thru a fatty Sphinx's Revelation or maybe an Archangel of Thune but typically it's Rev or bust as far as the life gain goes in Esper. So even if you could play a Watery Grave shock for two then Thoughtseize and take another two, if you are playing esper, there's a good chance you will never replenish that life unless you manage to fire off a Rev, and even then, that'd be to make up the life lost via your opponent smashing your face.
They are great as a pair in the sb, but in the main they almost feel clunky and kinda overkill, especially when game one is designed to net you the knowledge you'll need to beat them games 2 and 3, Thoughtseize in game one for an esper deck seems unnecessary. Not to mention the meta is fairly predictably once your opponent lays his second land of the game, it's either;
island, mutavault. = mono blue
swamp, mutavault = mono black
G/R dual land, mutavault = G/R Monsters
esper dual land, mutavault = Esper
fairly predictable meta, and at that point the info isnt as crucial as you can begin deciding how you want to sb as soon as you know what archetype they are using, which can occur as soon as Turn 2, Game 1.
Obviously Thoughtseize is one of the strongest cards in standard atm, but that doesn't mean it should be jammed into every mainboard that supports black spells. Or does it?
March 12, 2014 2:18 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #10
I'm starting to get on the bandwagon that it doesn't NEED to be main deck. I have things like Sylvan Caryatid , Kiora's Follower , or removal like Abrupt Decay that I can cast on turn two, and would rather not shock myself to death to be able to turn 1 Thoughtseize , turn 2 removal/ramp creature and already being down to 14 LP NOT COUNTING if my opponent hits me. Seems bad to set myself up that way.
I'm thinking that having either a couple of more removal spells or low cost creatures main is better, and THEN SB'ing in Thoughtseize if you need them games 2-3
March 12, 2014 3:39 p.m.
That's the scariest thing about running them in the main of a deck that isn't mono-black, as you could easily end up shocking and taking 4 total on turn one to see their hand is full of aggro game 1, now your pretty much screwed.
March 12, 2014 3:41 p.m.
notamardybum says... #14
If i'm playing a deck with thoughtseize, and my opponent is playing control, its going down turn 1, maybe 2-3, but thats only if i know its control. other than that i like to wait to see more info to then know what i really need to get rid of and what i can let hit
March 12, 2014 5:22 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #15
Life is a resource. Its not until you are >=10 life that you should worry.
March 12, 2014 5:24 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #16
Keep in mind that, in many cases, it is advantageous to wait until turn 2 to Thoughtseize anyways so you get more information, especially if it's being used as a sideboard against mid/control. Paying 4 life for it off the side shouldn't be a common situation.
March 13, 2014 7:44 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #17
All of this is true IF you start with a Thoughtseize
in your hand. If you happen to play against an aggressive deck or monoblue (which is still a huge presence in the meta), it's a bad card. I'm simply saying that multicolored decks (3 color like BUG) can put them in the sideboard as there are better options to run main. If you need a removal spell or a creature in the midgame and draw a Thoughtseize
you could be dead.
Now against slower midrange/control matchups, it is advantageous to have these cards at almost anytime, so that's why I bring them in for those matchups.
Monoblack really doesn't have many answers to enchantments or "gods" so they HAVE to run Thoughtseize as a 4 of main in the hopes of catching it before it can resolve. They also have Whip of Erebos and Gray Merchant of Asphodel to gain back some of the life loss from casting Thoughtseize , and they don't run shock lands so their life loss is minimal if they want to cast it early
March 13, 2014 9:08 a.m.
TurboFagoot says... #18
Duh the keyword is ideally. If you're deck isn't stopping you from losing the game, you should find a new deck you doughnut.
March 13, 2014 1:16 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #19
Maybe you should find another thread to comment on if you're going to be like that...
I look for CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions on improving things and not negative comments like that
March 14, 2014 8:54 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #20
And my deck wouldn't lose as easily if I had creatures/removal in instead of the Thoughtseize main
March 14, 2014 1:20 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #21
lol I find it funny how many people r against the life loss.
If it puts u ahead it's worth it. I'm used to my decks commonly stabilizing with less than 10 life. I just don't focus on my life total, focus on the win.
I run 4x Thoughtseize MB & 2x Duress SB. The 2 extra discard spells are something I side in the most.
...now 3 color is different. I deff don't think u need 4x Thoughtseize MB but like other have said, could be a priceless tool game 2 when they side in some unexpected threats.
harrydemon117 think of Thoughtseize as the best removal black offers. It takes out everything save manlands for 1 mana. It doesn't get better. Not even Snuff Out is close ....maybe Do or Die or Innocent Blood ...but neither of those are standard legal.
March 15, 2014 3:53 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #22
I get that....and I guess that there aren't TOO many "super aggressive" decks being played right now so I can keep them main and just wait to cast them so i'm not killing myself. I have also entertained the thought of putting in 1 x Elixir of Immortality to shuffle my graveyard back AND gain some life
March 15, 2014 11:25 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #23
That sounds like a good idea.
Every time I see an Elixir of Immortality I Abrupt Decay it. A single copy of that card is quite useful.
I understand B/W/1 is easier to cast in a 3 color deck than BB1 of Lifebane Zombie but I think the zombie would be a better SB choice.
March 15, 2014 12:11 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #24
B/W/1 ? I'm using BUG colors not junk...I am confused here
The Doctor says... #2
If you're running three color (let's assume esper control) I would not run it main board.
Control already takes a beating early. Bashing yourself in for 4 (minimum 2) is not good in that situation, in case you have poor card draw/get mana screwed/flooded.
I'd run 2 or 3 sideboard for when I play against Midrange or another control deck.
March 12, 2014 11:25 a.m.