Meta Shifting. Esper back?
Standard forum
Posted on March 3, 2014, 8:31 a.m. by Enlightened_Jedi
Well its obvious, and honestly kind of expected that with the new shifting of the meta, thanks to GR and Jund Monsters, that it seems control decks are going back to Esper. To utilize the tools of Black.
My Question is, does this pretty much seal the deal on straight UW control? (which I run myself)
In my Meta I do indeed have a lot of skilled players, some which net deck. (Levi Gaines just one of the many skilled players to mention.)
So honestly should I just go ahead and start trying to trade and buy the necessary tools to run esper, or does UW still have somewhat of a chance to survive, minus the killing ability of black in the current meta?
Also shoutout to the Naya hexproof deck, which I have been happily tearing up on Cockatrice with.
I'll make the argument that while azorious has a stable land base, because it is two colors, that esper's land base isn't bad or weak either. out of a few hundred games, I've only been color screwed once or twice and that was before Temple of Enlightenment .
March 3, 2014 8:48 a.m.
Enlightened_Jedi says... #4
I actually main 3x Celestial Flare to deal with Dragon and Hydra. And it actually still fares well against muta's and other creatures G1
March 3, 2014 8:56 a.m.
trentfaris242 says... #5
The only reason there was so much Esper this weekend was because there was so much GR last weekend. The only reason it did well is because GR wasn't prepared for it. I don't think it will come back.
March 3, 2014 9:02 a.m.
Enlightened_Jedi says... #6
trentfaris242 it already came back? hence what you just said. this past weekend, which means as of right now Esper is still a force in the Meta. At least that's the way I view it.
Week to week.
Will it stay permanently? I have no clue. Honestly as long as the meta is creature heavy as it is. I think Esper will be lingering around.
March 3, 2014 9:07 a.m.
trentfaris242 says... #7
I would argue that for something to really "come back" in the meta, the change would need to at least show some lasting value. Esper Control has no reason now for any of us to think it will come back. It's in the same state as before. Being caught off guard doesn't make it suddenly viable again.
March 3, 2014 9:10 a.m.
To look at the meta week to week and say a change/upstart that does good one week is the best in the meta, is just giving false information and only good for shock value, similar to headlines that exaggerate the news to get sales/views. It really needs to have staying power to be the clear cut best. Just reiterating above comment.
March 3, 2014 9:20 a.m.
Nigrescence says... #9
Given the regularly good performance of my Esper deck, Esper of the Gods (4-0 at FNM), I think it has a shot. My only worry is that I see most people play Esper Control with a lot of threats. What has worked for me is to run minimal threats (in my case, three, each different), and therefore have more ways to control the game.
Maybe I'm just too silly to understand why I should run more than one of each threat and more than three threats. The most I would do is to throw in one more threat, and it would be either a Pack Rat or possibly a Blood Baron of Vizkopa . Probably in the sideboard, too.
March 3, 2014 9:35 a.m.
lord_of_the_snakes says... #10
in my meta, its been back, every fnm i went to, it was either U/W or esper control against my deck, when you have to mainboard anti control, there is too much control.
March 3, 2014 9:47 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #11
I play G/R Monsters as well as Jund Monsters and have played against Esper decks plenty at FNM/Tournements. Control moving back to Esper or American is an obvious move and should stick. Esper allows for 8+ more answers to Stormbreath Dragon and Mistcutter Hydra and 12 more answers to planeswalkers. Esper itself is weak to U/W so there is always that keeping it from totally taking over the control scene. A lot of meta balancing going on in standard right now but it seems a though it will be very diverse this season.
March 3, 2014 10 a.m.
I certainly agree with the above comment. A Diverse season is coming up, because both esper and azorius have their pros and cons and the meta has shifted.
March 3, 2014 10:02 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #13
The main reason to run Esper is for things like Thoughtseize , Sin Collector , and Blood Baron of Vizkopa which is HUGE in the mirror match (U/W) and others as well. Not to mention spot removal vs decks like R/G monsters
I think that because they now have 3 different scry lands as well as shocks, Esper's manabase is ALMOST as consistent as U/W (I say almost because mathematically it's a higher % chance to have a bad starting hand...but not by much).
For midrange/control decks, I have ALWAYS embraced 3 colors over 2 if the manabase is good enough as you have more options. more options = more possible plays to make and your opponent can't play around EVERYTHING
March 3, 2014 2:19 p.m.
Nigrescence says... #14
I still don't believe people saying that Esper is weak to Azorius. My matchups have always been ridiculously favorable.
March 3, 2014 3:24 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #16
A little dated but still relevant. Excerpt from an article by Melissa DeTora.
"Most players think that Esper is favored in this matchup, but I heavily disagree. Sure, we lose out by not playing Thoughtseize and our Planeswalkers are more vulnerable than theirs because we don't have Hero's Downfall, but in general we are playing more Counterspells than Esper, especially after board. We also have the ultimate trump card: Elixir of Immortality.
Elixir of Immortality is the best card in this matchup, hands down. How often does this happen to you in the Esper Mirror: you randomly draw your AEtherling too early in the game and at some point it gets Thoughtseized away. Then you struggle to find another win condition for the rest of the game. With Elixir of Immortality, you can just ignore Thoughtseize and Recycle all of your Counterspells, Sphinx's Revelations, and anything else you may have lost to a Thoughtseize. Elixir also gives you inevitability. Every time you shuffle an Elixir into your deck, you are making your deck much better than your opponent's. On average, you will be drawing better cards and will likely be able to form a hand of nothing but counters and Sphinx's Revelations. Eventually, you will be able to ignore your opponent's Sphinx's Revelations because it will mean that your opponent will be closer to decking himself. Once you get to that point, the only card you need to counter is AEtherling."
March 3, 2014 5:33 p.m.
Nigrescence says... #17
I also have Elixir of Immortality . Your argument is invalid. The "ultimate trump card" isn't really. In fact, pretty much everything in my sideboard except for the few "extra" kill spells is great for a matchup against Azorius control. And I have Thoughtseize .
That excerpt seems either extremely poorly thought out, or only analyzed netdecks (and I don't know what they run, really). I don't play netdecks. I play my deck. My Esper wins against Azorius. Every time.
March 3, 2014 6:26 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #18
You're free to feel how you want. I like Bant for Kiora, the Crashing Wave and Mistcutter Hydra because it's fun and has a couple better match ups.
March 3, 2014 6:53 p.m.
Nigrescence says... #19
It's not a matter of feeling; it's a matter of fact.
Bant is certainly attractive thanks to Kiora, the Crashing Wave . I even considered switching to Bant when I found out that she was to be printed.
March 3, 2014 7:07 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #20
@Nigrescence, If it's a matter of fact you wouldn't be complaining. The fact is that Azorius has better matchups in the current meta than Esper. Whether or not Esper beats Azorius is entirely irrelevant because Azorius is dominating Esper in tournaments. I don't think you can make a case for this past weekend simply because it saw about 400% more play time than usual, and not because it's awesome in all matches; it was solely to shut down GR.
March 3, 2014 7:52 p.m.
Nigrescence says... #21
"If it's a matter of fact you wouldn't be complaining."
That's not only not true, but stupid. People say wrong things. I can complain about them being either incorrect or dishonest. That I complain does not mean that I'm not right. Otherwise this is an argument against yourself as well.
The fact is that the argument was about whether Esper or Azorius is better matched up against each other. You clearly don't understand that because you dismiss that as irrelevant when that was the whole argument. Try to pay attention to a conversation before you interject with pointless drivel.
I'm not making a case for this past weekend. I don't even know what you're talking about. Get a grip on reality and pay attention before you comment.
March 3, 2014 8:11 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #22
That wasn't the point of the argument. The entire point of this thread is whether or not Esper can sustain wins in the meta.
"I still don't believe people saying that Esper is weak to Azorius. My matchups have always been ridiculously favorable."
You literally started this bickering in an attempt to validate your Esper deck, haha.
March 3, 2014 8:18 p.m.
I think that link from the article was very poorly thought out. Elixir of Immortality is colorless. It can be played in literally every deck in the meta. And I run Esper control with the elixir in the side. I know lots of people who run it in the main. They act like Azorius is the only deck running it. This is simply not true. In my Esper deck, my main answer to Azorius is Jace, Memory Adept . Azorius is built with so much card draw that they are always in danger of decking themselves. If you can avoid the elixir (and milling 10 cards at a time you have good odds of milling it) you are home free.
March 3, 2014 8:23 p.m.
Nigrescence says... #24
I was agreeing with other people saying that Esper has its advantages over Azorius. I didn't need to validate my Esper because it wasn't under attack. I was using my experience against Azorius to add to what others were saying.
Specifically, I was backing up harrydemon117 who went into more depth on the advantages Esper has over Azorius.
The post made by Rasta_Viking29 covered the primary advantage Esper has over Azorius against two huge threats in the meta. However, I feel he was wrong about stating that Azorius has advantage over Esper, and I expounded upon that in my response.
As kmcree said, Elixir of Immortality is something that every deck can access, including Esper, and my Esper specifically runs that card in the sideboard. Unlike him, however, my answer to Azorius is to simply have a deck that is better at controlling. I don't bother with a different Jace because I feel that it conflicts with my use of 4x Jace, Architect of Thought . But that's just simply my choice on how to play Esper.
You do understand that conversations move beyond the initial post, right?
March 3, 2014 8:38 p.m.
Please Nigresence and trentfaris242 stop with the bickering. You both acting very poorly. Stop taking pot shots at each other. If you feel a certain way feel free to say it but respect others opinions.
March 3, 2014 8:40 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #26
@RedSoxFanKy, I could care less about their argument of Esper vs. Azorius, just sort of sick of seeing post after post about it when this thread has nothing to do with that.
March 3, 2014 8:46 p.m.
The shift in the meta was predictable. The meta will shift again. Next week UWR or UWG could begin making their presence felt in a larger way, or UW may return in a big way.
If the meta shifts and you purchase the cards to build Esper, will you still play Esper? If the answer is "no", you should stick with UW. You can craft the deck in a way to strength match-ups that your are not happy with. The deck will be solid enough to run at a competitive FNM as long as the pilot is competent.
Have fun playing.
March 3, 2014 9:34 p.m.
notamardybum says... #28
I've been playing esper, but its truly just an azorius control deck with a light splash of black for a couple creatures and 3 hero's downfall. Theres a couple cards in the SB that only help against the mirror. Azorius does have the counter spells, which is what I like, but can be a little lackluster against other decks (G/R Monsters), which is where cards like Doom Blade come in. I like to not to have to rely on Elspeth, Sun's Champion solely as a win-con. Obzedat, Ghost Council & Blood Baron of Vizkopa are excellent creatures that are difficult to get rid of.
I think both U/W & U/W/B are tough decks to overcome, and I don't necessarily think you should switch to esper just because azoius might be inferior, because its not.
March 5, 2014 4:33 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #29
Notion Thief is starting to make its way back into sideboards now (mainly monoblack, but Esper could pick it up to). Just something to watch out for
ChiefBell says... #2
It's all a bit touch and go. The mana base for azorius is obviously a lot more stable and with Supreme Verdict , and Detention Sphere it was looking to get on just fine without the killspells. To be honest, there's not much wrong with azorius except of course Stormbreath Dragon posing problems, and Mistcutter Hydra too.
This is always a tough question to answer because there seem to be so many reason why azorius control shouldn't work, but it just does, and it does very well. Despite the hydra and despite the dragon. My recommendation would be to take it to FNM and find out how you pilot the deck and how well it runs there. If you do get screwed by the usual suspects then start the transformation.
March 3, 2014 8:40 a.m.