Okay, so let's talk about Sylvan Caryatid
Standard forum
Posted on Oct. 10, 2014, 9:18 p.m. by Spootyone
What I'm about to suggest might shock most of you (especially because I play a lot of green decks and love mana), but I'm watching the pro tour right now and I'm wondering just how good caryatid is. Let's look at some facts.
What is Caryatid good for?
mana ramp
mana fixing
blocker for aggro decks
There might be some other fringe benefits, but these are the commonly-mentioned ones.
What is Caryatid...Bad...for?
horrendous late game top deck
bad late game blocker
Why is Caryatid bad in this CURRENT format?
dies to Anger of the Gods if one happens to be running both (I am currently)
mana dorks become a bit weaker in a format with discard like Thoughtseize and Despise , since losing your bomb makes the mana worthless.
blocking becomes terribly risky against the top aggressive deck currently (jeskai) since prowess kills it and Mantis Rider flies over it.
if not playing against aggro as noted above, the games go very much longer, and are much more about card advantage and 1 for 1s than about "who got to 5-6 mana first?". Essentially, this means every caryatid you play is almost a dead card.
having an extra creature to sacrifice to an edict is irrelevant when Crackling Doom is the one being flung around.
Don't get me wrong -- Sylvan Caryatid is a great card with great abilities and great stats and overall it's amazing...but I've been testing with it and it keeps upsetting me time and again. I'd rather keep up mana for Negate or Lightning Strike on T2 than play an 0/3 dork. I'd rather play 25 lands and 3 more spells than top deck 2-3 caryatids when trying to survive against control. And I'd rather my aggro-blockers actually BLOCK instead of telling me "hey..uhh...I don't want to touch that...it's going to be big and stuff."
I think I might test my deck without it. What are people's opinions on this? I'd like it if this could become a decent-sized discussion.
I actually have Satyr Wayfinder more often in my decks because I haven't spent the money on caryatids and it thins me out a land and gives me a 1/1 body I dont care if I .block with and it dies. Also the wayfinder is better in any deck with delve or whatever has graveyard use.
October 10, 2014 9:29 p.m.
Hootiequack says... #5
My counters to your sentiment would be that:
A late game Sylvan Caryatid is better than a late game land in nearly all cases. And theoretically you'd probably like to have enough draw or scry effects to avoid simply top decking it.
It still blocks any number of 2 power aggro cards, specifically all the black 1 drops. Otherwise it is still the same old option of chump blocking to preserve life or take the shot to ramp into something like Polukranos, World Eater .
Hexproof protects it from Lightning Strike , Hero's Downfall , etc. so it won't be as easily removed if you need the ramp. Nothing is worse than needing ramp and having your Elvish Mystic blasted before you get much use out of it.
Mana fixing was a big thing, but I can see how that is diminished with 5 dual or tri color land sets out.
I did run it with Anger of the Gods post board before rotation and often times I knew from my opening hand if I needed to sacrifice the Sylvan Caryatid to it or not. Obviously the preference is not to, but it's just a necessary evil if it means stopping aggro in its tracks early on. And it also can help hit the double red on the cost.
All that said, if you don't need the ramp or color fixing, it might be underperforming in some decks. Especially with where the price has gone recently. It just always fit those roles for me.
October 10, 2014 11:05 p.m.
Hootiequack: I've been playing courser/caryatid alongside a good bunch of scry and draw and still find myself topdecking them at inopportune times. I should also mention that courser can't grab a caryatid off the top, which is something that happens to me often and it's just the worst feeling when you need that land drop.
I'm not so much suggesting ramp decks shouldn't run it or that it doesn't block anything, but I'm rather saying that I'd rather have a burn spell to actually kill the threat that turn or just something else to help me control the board. Green feels so weak right now :/
October 10, 2014 11:24 p.m.
Hootiequack says... #7
Yea, one thing I always had good luck with was the interaction between scry lands, Courser of Kruphix , and Kiora, the Crashing Wave in the colors. Just so many options to filter through cards. Being able to cycle through so many cards really helped later in the game.
October 11, 2014 midnight
Temur is the wedge with an emphasis on green... So we should look at that
Sylvan Caryatid helps a hasty turn 3 Savage Knuckleblade but doesn't fit the Temur mechanic (See the Unwritten ); I can see arguments in all directions lol
October 11, 2014 midnight
LtMiller117 says... #9
I think the most crucial thing that is making it versatile and played often is it's hexproof. It can't be spot removed, which is hue with so many removal options floating around. That's the reason Sagu Mauler is a great card. It says hell no to cards like Hero's Downfall . If it didn't, people would just use mystic and barely glance at it unless they wanted more mana and didn't care about the lack of hexproof. A caryatid without hexproof is essentially a Rattleclaw Mystic give or take.
But it offers good resources for stabilization and allows for earlier threats to be dropped. Even with courser, it always helps to have access to as much mana as you can and sometimes that requires going outside of land cards. Mono green is one of the strongest decks currently and a big portion of there success comes down to Elvish Mystic and caryatids. They set the decks up for extremely potent threats early and don't get a lot of credit for being boss at keeping the mana coming. Without them, MGD wouldn't be so hot.
The card is good. Overhyped, but good. My only complaint is that she can't attack and get damage in, especially late games and empty boards. Mystic can at least get damage through in rare occasions. But still, We can't get angry at this card because it can't survive anger or wraths nor because of its lack of mid game defense. It has to have some form of drawback to it otherwise he would be completely broken like Jeskai Ascendency and therefore not fun to play against. If it were a 0/4 or heck even a 1/3, the amount of complaints would skyrocket. Aggro decks would never have any way to deal with it. I feel as though the drawbacks are still worth running in the deck. It's a good card, may not have a place outside of standard anyway but for the format, he can do more good than harm...usually.
October 11, 2014 12:39 a.m.
I'd rather cut Elvish Mystic before Caryatid in 9 out of 10 cases. The fixing is really important for tricolor decks and devotion splashes. Both mana dorks are also important to make Courser of Kruphix and Nissa, Worldwaker into value plays on curve, instead of letting them sit for a turn.
The anger of the gods dilemma isn't really that much of a problem either, by the way. You only board these in against either red or black aggro and both of those decks lose the game, if you can resolve Polukranos, World Eater on an empty board. So it's no biggy if you sweep your own caryatids away in those matchups or throw them into the abyss before, knowing what you're about to do.
October 11, 2014 2:40 a.m.
weisemanjohn says... #11
I like how it assists a "perfect" creature curve scenario where I will always have that 
mana open for a Stubborn Denial
to my opponent's face when they attempt their removal once I stick a Savage Knuckleblade
on turn three (follow up with Polukranos, World Eater
, Surrak Dragonclaw
, Hydra Broodmaster
) without the caryatid, that curve out would've been much more difficult to achieve.... Though Rattleclaw Mystic
is almost as effective in that scenario assuming your opponent doesn't go for the Lightning Strike
turn 2/3 on it.
October 11, 2014 11:38 a.m.
Alright so I hear a lot of people arguing for Caryatid in decks focusing on having lots of ramp, namely Green Devotion. I think we can all agree that in a deck where you're playing 10-12 mana dorks you should probably include the one with hexproof.
For the sake of discussion, let's now look at the card in a deck such as my Temur control list (not going to link). In this particular deck, ramping heavily is really not a big strategy, and caryatid is used primarily as a blocker and mana fixer. In decks like these, I feel as though having a playset of the respective Tri-land is going to be more useful since it doesn't technically require 2 mana to invest. In a way, it's more like investing one man (since it comes in tapped). In addition, since blocking seems to hardly ever matter, you can instead use those card slots for removal spells to KILL the attackers instead of just nullifying their attacks.
With so much mana fixing available in lands right now, it seems like playing a 3-color deck heavy in all colors is perfectly fine on the lands as long as you have a way to fight off aggro/burn. Opinions?
October 11, 2014 6:50 p.m.
I agree or disagree, depending on how deep the deck in question is going.
Your deck is fine without them, Spooty. But lets say you were playing Sultai, Abzan or Jund with Empty the Pits . Or just Abzan Midrange, as the deck is really mana sensitive (and casting Siege Rhino with Painlands is pretty sad).
The midrangy green decks need the fixing, the blocker (especially in mirrors, a bunch of Caryatids can chump, say, a monstrous polukranos for one or two turns, giving you an opportunity to find a removal spell) and a way to get on curve value out of Nissa and Courser.
Finally, I'd rather draw a caryatid on turn 16 in those decks, rather than of a non-temple tapland.
October 12, 2014 6:22 a.m.
They tap for any color mana. They're Hexproof. They block.
They allow turn 3 Siege Rhino
bretters says... #2
If your land base is good enough then you shouldn't need it right? Also.. If its not a ramp deck then dont use it.
October 10, 2014 9:25 p.m.