Over-hyped cards
Standard forum
Posted on Oct. 15, 2013, 4:37 p.m. by Sawyer42
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is still running for about 25 dollars on the web. Why?! He is NOT that good. His -X ability is running on the hopes of playing a creature heavy deck, and the big hitters in Theros have devotion effects. So even though you get the creature, the devotion triggers will either be low or non-existent. Don't get me wrong; Ashiok CAN be very powerful. But 25 bucks? Nope. Also, why $10 for Hero's Downfall ? Making it instant speed and cost only black (double B and a colorless) is certainly an upgrade over Murder and in some situations Dreadbore , but does instant speed really qualify for an additional 6-7 dollars more than Dreadbore? I don't think so. Lastly for me is Stormbreath Dragon . This thing is going for around $30 dollars on the web... why?! He isn't Thundermaw reincarnate. His monstrosity is very unreliable, and the cost is too much for a one time deal. Plus, he'll most likely be dead or dealt with before you can activate his monstrosity. I could understand him going for like, Griselbrand price, but geez. What do you guys think?
blackmarker90 says... #3
Stormbreath may not, ashiok probably will drop to $20ish and depending on removal that comes in with Born of the Gods Hero's downfall might, odds are that it will go up a bit right at release then peter out a week or two after
October 15, 2013 4:51 p.m.
notamardybum says... #4
The only thing i can agree with you on is why is hero's downfall $10. That being said its an amazing card. Stormbreath draagon, yes its amazing. I played an esper deck with it, and i took an opponent down from 13 to 1 in 1 turn by making it monstrous and swinging. it should be around $25. Completely stops control decks, its hilarious. ashiok is amazing. even if you're not playing against creature heavy decks, its taking away cards from your opponent. and being able to take away that devotion bomb is crucial. Yeah playing it yourself isnt so great, but taking it away from your opponent is.
Over hyped.... no, not at all.
October 15, 2013 4:51 p.m.
I think you are looking at Ashiok incorrectly. It actually doesn't want to go against a creature heavy deck, it wants to hose the control matchup. Not only does it put the opponent on a clock while removing card advantage, it can hit Aetherlings or Obzedats, essentially giving you a means to search your opponent's deck for their win-con.
Hero's downfall is up because Esper control is still a thing, and it needed a good way to deal with planeswalker's. Splashing a fourth color is not really workable any longer, so this gives it a very useful way to deal with it.
Stormbreath is up because the Monstrosity is gravy, not the main point. True, you will probably lose him before it goes monstrous, but a 4/4 hasty flier for 5 isn't bad, plus he helps with devotion. Additionally, RDW is what happens first, and he looks like a great way to sneak past that last bit of damage you need to win.
At least, that's my opinion. I could be way off base.
October 15, 2013 4:55 p.m.
I want to reiterate that all the cards are VERY good. But paying 25 for a 4/4 flyer with haste is just plain dumb in my opinion. raithe000 had a good point; the monstrosity is just icing (or 'gravy' as he put it), not the main point of the card. I can appreciate a good creature, but not one I have to pay 25 a piece for.
I may be looking at Ashiok oddly, I suppose. He is a 3 drop Planeswalker, which is very nice (we all know how much the pros love them Domri Rade's). Exiling solutions from your opponents deck is nice, but most competitive decks have 4 or 3 of each card they play. He has stalling value and possible 'bomb' drops, which is valuable to his color and niche in B/U. So I suppose I undervalued him... However, I still don't agree with the pricetag.
Good points raithe000 and notamardybum.
October 15, 2013 5:09 p.m.
The Doctor says... #7
hi, my name is Master of Waves , and I am currently the most ludicrously priced card in standard.
October 15, 2013 5:10 p.m.
Master of waves isn't that over priced. He's the main card in one of the best decks in standard currently and he's only $20
October 15, 2013 5:13 p.m.
notamardybum says... #9
Stormbreath Dragon also has protection from white, he's not just 4/4 flying/haste with monstrosity 3. to me, the best part is the pro white.
also, lol @ Master of Waves
October 15, 2013 5:18 p.m.
It is also worth noting that we are only a month out from Theros's release. Not only are people still hyped for the new cards and possibly overvaluing them, but the total number of packs opened is quite low (compared to the total number of RTR packs opened up until now), which means the supply of these cards is smaller than what it will be when the prices stabilize, which, according to the one course of econ I took, means that the price will be higher than it should be.
October 15, 2013 5:20 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #12
Ashiok isn't good because she exiles win conditions. She's good because she is a win condition.
In a stalled board state (which control generally tries to create) she ends the game though attrition. If your opponent runs out of cards before they beat you then they lose (think Nephalia Drownyard ). Her -X can end the game on its own if it needs to, but its best use is for grabbing a blocker to clog the board.
You never want to bank on milling your opponent's win condition because their deck is randomly shuffled. You are exactly as likely to leave it on top of their deck as you are to exile it. For every time you kill off their "I win" card, there is another time where you cause them to topdeck it 3 turns early.
October 15, 2013 5:57 p.m.
blackmarker90 says... #13
Which Is why you add Jace, Memory Adept and take another 10 cards plus those three
October 15, 2013 6:02 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #14
Plus Ashiok is a 3 drop planeswalker that immediately jumps to five loyalty counters. That outraces 95% of decks, even aggro and RDW.
October 15, 2013 6:04 p.m.
Hero's Downfall is money because it kills both Ashiok and Stormbreath!
October 15, 2013 6:11 p.m.
The Doctor says... #16
"Best Deck in Standard" is a great overstatement. Players > Decks.
October 15, 2013 6:11 p.m.
If you cant afford those cards as singles, buy packs and trade. It's not that hard. I will probably never go to a pro tour, states or anything crazy but with $20 a week I compete at my FNMs. Even win some.
Know your goals, set a realistic budget to accomplish said goal. have fun.
October 15, 2013 6:16 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #18
Adding to the "winning the race" comment, if your opponent playing RDW has to use its whole turn 3 to kill your Ashiok, you probably just set yourself up to win.
She's not an every-deck powerhouse, but she's got some good support for the decks she's good in, and will continue to do well as long as U/B/x attrition control continues to be a thing.
October 15, 2013 6:46 p.m.
Arachnarchist says... #19
If you drop Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
on turn 3 and your aggro opponent spends a turn to kill it, then they're playing their deck wrong.
October 15, 2013 7:13 p.m.
Hero's Downfall is pretty sweet, and definitely better then Murder . An instant removal that can also target those hard to kill walkers. Though, if you were in B/R Dreadbore is still great, I wouldn't poo-poo it.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is good control. Remember, it's not just about Theros, but all Standard, so not only do you get a mill effect, but you can also snatch something of theirs to go against them. Haven't you ever played a deck that you couldn't get around something simple like Flying?
Though, I'm not so sure about the Stormbreath Dragon maybe there's something I'm missing as to why it's at such a price.
Here's an article about Master of Waves , it's going to be a beast in Blue if it isn't already.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/rc/263
October 15, 2013 7:18 p.m.
Master of Waves mono blue devotion as the best deck at the pro tour for sure.
October 15, 2013 7:29 p.m.
heros downfall costing more than abrupt decay seems crazy to me. but im pretty sure everything will drop soon enough
October 15, 2013 8:44 p.m.
I didn't buy Stormbreath Dragon the first time I saw it! but in ramp, the monstrous cost is very good. It's very annoying and it may as well be monstrous 5, as they have 2 cards in their hand. Also pro-white stops heaps of removal like a-charm, d-sphere, o-charm, chained to rocks, any Pacifism effects! and big angels can't block him either. He's actually quite strong, despite looking like a weaker hellkite replacement.
October 16, 2013 2:54 a.m.
I want to call Master of Waves total BS, but then again all you have to do is kill him off and (unless they have another out) the tokens go. Should he be a legendary?
October 16, 2013 4:15 a.m.
I don't get Master of Waves . I thought modern merfolk would drive its price up not standard. All I think when I see it is Ratchet Bomb .
October 16, 2013 4:19 a.m.
Supreme verdict is no where near being over hyped or over rated. It's played heavily in standard, legacy and modern.
October 16, 2013 6:20 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #28
A card can't really be over or under hyped once it's been around for two sets, only new cards still have hype, although I'll give that with rotation all cards are effectively "new" for a time.
October 16, 2013 9:21 p.m.
vonbittner says... #29
Master of Waves is gonna be good till people expect it to be played. When people learn how to go aroud it, it's going bye-bye. Paired with Ogre Battledriver , it could be amazing.Now, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx gets me thinking. How good is it? It relies on u having permanents that are hard to remove AND 2 more lands. Is it really that reliable? I mean, I've been playing it and it's sometimes really frustrating to have it sitting there and NOT giving me the mana I need because my board is being wiped every other turn. I imagine enchantment centered deck could make it something, but which?
October 17, 2013 9:25 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #30
@raithe000 has a point...we are ONLY a month out from release and things are still being sorted out and packs/boxes are still being open. not to mention Fall States and Pro Tour Theros has just completed, and cards tend to SURGE shortly after due to supply/demand for them.
I will submit that there are cards that go beyond the trend such as Liliana of the Veil staying up in the $40 - $50 range as she was a cross format staple. Only time will tell for sure, but some things COULD stay up due to other formats.
Master of Waves would be used in Standard and not so much in Legacy as he is a 4 CMC card and Legacy merfolk do NOT like to spend that much mana on a creature (to answer Nobilior's query).
As far as Hero's Downfall is concerned, it is the ONLY instant speed removal for planeswalkers in standard that destroys them (that can specifically target a planeswalker). THIS is why it's so pricey right now. If there was another removal piece ESPECIALLY in another color, then the price of Hero's Downfall would decrease significantly
October 17, 2013 10:26 a.m.
I was thinking modern merfolk would love him. Undeniably, he is good, but with Ratchet Bomb in the format, i just don't see how he is really as strong as people think.
But we are just a month in... :/
October 18, 2013 2:03 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #32
Tokens hasn't seen that much play yet, and Ratchet Bomb
will ONLY get rid of the tokens. themselves...not Master of Waves
.
The other reason he is so good is he has pro red which can stand up to a RDW deck for days (and since that seems to be the most popular archetype in tournaments right now, I can see why people love him)
October 18, 2013 8:11 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #33
@Nobilior True Ratchet Bomb will get rid of the tokens, but a blink effect could have him put the tokens back into play. I agree a single removal spell will kill all the tokens as well (if there are only one), but that's why black is so good
October 21, 2013 9:57 a.m.
SharuumNyan says... #34
Why is Master of Waves so good? Because he wins games.
Against Mono-Black Devotion and B/W Midrange that both run 4x Desecration Demon , who wouldn't want a bunch of tokens to sac and tap him down every combat?
October 21, 2013 12:07 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #35
I'm still torn on Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx though, especially in mono-blue. The only practical use I see for it is to overload Cyclonic Rift , which would be sweet. It's so situational though.
October 21, 2013 12:12 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #36
@harrydemon117 Instant speed removal for planeswalkers is superfluous, you can't stop a planeswalker using their ability on the turn they come down, and they can't use their ability more than once, so why you would need to blast them during your opponents turn is beyond me.
I suppose their could arise a situation where you are holding removal in case of an attack, and down comes a planeswalker and you decide to blast that instead, but what if they play it during their second mainphase, now you've wasted your removal, all because it was instant.
It's only better than Dreadbore under certain circumstances, one being that you aren't running red. Of course there is nothing stopping you from running both.
October 21, 2013 1:25 p.m.
vonbittner says... #37
Every planeswalker removal ought to be good. Last game I played I ran 3x Hero's Downfall and 4x Dreadbore and I had to remove SIX planeswalkers in FIVE turns. It was insane.
October 21, 2013 2:38 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #38
instant speed is bonus obviously, but the fact remains it is 1 out of 2 cards that can specifically target planeswalkers (there are other ways to remove them in other colors, but not strictly for monoblack etc).
- The land is not only for overloading Cyclonic Rift , but it allows for multiple uses of Thassa, God of the Sea to make all of their attacking creatures unblockable for an alpha strike
October 21, 2013 2:51 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #39
Stormbreath Dragon , seriously? You're complaining about just post release pricing on a 4/4 flying, pro-white, haste dragon with a mana dump ability that wrecks control?
Hero's Downfall will drop back to $5 or so. The reason it's so good is that it does double duty, instant speed creature removal, or the ability to remove a planeswalker on their turn so you can do things on your turn like cast creatures or wrath.
October 21, 2013 3:11 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #40
@harrydemon117 I still don't see Nykthos as that useful. If you have a devotion of 6 and four untappped islands, you can use Thassa's ability twice. If you have devotion of 6 and 3 islands plus Nykthos, you can use Thassa's ability three times. In exchange for one extra unblockable guy, you just junked up your deck and risked pulling a colorless mana producer early game when you might need that other island to play a Nightveil Specter or a Tidebinder Mage .
I would prefer having the island over Nykthos in most matchups. The island will help you play high-devotion dudes to turn Thassa into a creature.
October 21, 2013 3:18 p.m.
A lot of the blink stuff left with Innistrad though. Furthermore, I was thinking you could either
a) Kill the tokens (the obvious response that you already mentioned)
or...
b) load it up with 2-3 counters and blow up all the, Frostburn Weird s, Nightveil Specter s, Tidebinder Mage s etc before Master of Waves resolves. They are still likely to get some tokens, but with the semi-wrath, it should nerf it a little.
At least, that has been my experience.
October 21, 2013 5:21 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #42
The best response to anyone hassling Master of Waves is to bounce it back to your hand with that Disperse .
October 21, 2013 5:46 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #43
Yes, but that's not it's best use. Better would be not to include a creature that's so easy to deal with.
October 21, 2013 6:01 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #44
@Schuesseled - so, because there is an answer to Master of Waves you think people shouldn't run it at all? That's an insane analysis. There's an answer to every card, but people still play Magic. Master of Waves is incredible, and it's only vulnerable because it's such a threat. If you put a different threat in the deck it's just going to become the next target. So why go with a suboptimal choice when every creature is potentially vulnerable to something?
October 21, 2013 8:21 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #45
Yes there's an answer to every card, but i would be very hesitant putting a creature with a measly one toughness into a deck at 4cmc. Seems beyond dumb.
Compare this to falkenrath, which could become invincible and gain counters at instant speed to protect itself, now that is a good card. This is a piece of shit, christmas wonder land to the max, oh yes.
October 21, 2013 8:48 p.m.
The Doctor says... #46
You simply don't block with it, and it's invulnerable to all burn.
You can't compare Falkenrath Aristocrat and Master of Waves , they are designed for two different things. One is a standalone kill card, while the other is meant to get things onto the field to overwhelm them.
In the current standard, Master of Waves is insane, however, I still think it's bad for the sole fact that it will not be used (much) in any other format, which is also what Falkenrath has pretty much become.
October 21, 2013 9 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #47
It's such a bad card...that won the Pro Tour. Schuesseled you sound a little butthurt. Did you get you ass kicked with mono-blue or something?
October 21, 2013 10:41 p.m.
Valentine35 says... #49
having seen and heard all of the arguments, i would have to agree that this set has the most over-priced cards i have seen in a long time...This set has had me wondering if i should quit playing Magic, because the price to have a good deck has skyrocketed. Before you needed maybe 2 different money cards to have a good deck, now it seems like you need at least 8 different money cards all in sets of 4's. This sets prices are off the charts, for a good standard deck you need to spend at very least $500.00 or more, that is just ridiculous.
October 22, 2013 5:57 a.m.
vonbittner says... #50
That's something I've been struggling with, too. I started playing a couple of months after RtR was released and had a hard time gathering cards. Planeswalkers are insanely expensive around here. Thoughtseize is in every deck and the price is ridiculous. Back in the day, when I first started, we did not have net decks or so many tournaments, or streaming and people brewed their own decks. That was fun. Now people simply use last week's champion's deck and prices go through the roof.
CW says... #2
Hey Stormbreath Dragon earns his value because he looks so damn cool.
Don't worry as soon as the next set they'll drop in price.
October 15, 2013 4:45 p.m.