Ral Zarek vs Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Standard forum
Posted on Sept. 15, 2013, 11:40 p.m. by brn3445
who is the new boss?
Ashiok has a very narrow deck type he'll fit into. I see Ral in a surprisingly high number of decks. Though I didn't think Ral would get used much at all so who knows, maybe Ashiok will come out to play.
September 15, 2013 11:55 p.m.
Blizzicane says... #5
Ral Zarek all the way his one of my favorite planewalkers for his ult alone
September 15, 2013 11:55 p.m.
ALSO, also, never forget Xenagos, The Reveler the green planeswalker
September 15, 2013 11:56 p.m.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver will be good, if not very good, in very specific decks. Ral Zarek is a better stand alone walker.
September 16, 2013 12:13 a.m.
10vernothin says... #8
Ral Zarek can kill ashiok with his -2...
just saying.
September 16, 2013 12:18 a.m.
If Ashiok hits, your op will +3 her, putting her at 6 loyalty by the time you could hit her with Ral Zarek .
September 16, 2013 12:20 a.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #10
It's only +2, but the point still stands
September 16, 2013 12:23 a.m.
KronicNinja says... #11
Its actually +2, not plus 3. But either way, Ral wouldn't be able to kill ashiok, seeing as the player is smart and immediately uses its +2..
September 16, 2013 12:24 a.m.
flyinginovals says... #13
Not once you activate Ashiok's +2, which is really the only option the turn you play him.
Honestly, though, each has its strengths and weaknesses. It sort of bugs me when people want to be able to say that one of two cards is "better" than the other, because they each fulfill a different fuction in a different context. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver has a lot going for him in a control deck:
-He provides considerable inevitability in a long game with his +2 alone: exiling three cards a turn is nothing to laugh at.
-He comes down on the third turn, and the fact that his first ability is +2 (as opposed to +1) makes him easier to defend.
-His second two abilities are almost gravy: getting a sort of quasi-card-advantage or threatening to Identity Crisis
your opponent gives a solid edge to your game.
On the other hand:
-He needs to be protected (which can theoretically be done with his -X). The sort of control decks that play Ashiok probably wouldn't run much in the way of creatures, although maybe some sweepers (if it was an esper build). Not that Ral defends himself particularly well (creatures tapped with his +1 untap in time to attack him, so really only his -2 is useful on defense).
Ral Zarek is much more at home in an aggro-control build, where he is able to back up a fleet of creatures and give the deck considerable reach. Color requirements aside, I can certainly envision decks that would rather play Ral over Ashiok, and other decks that would play Ashiok over Ral. It's really a matter of play style.
September 16, 2013 12:36 a.m.
10vernothin says... #14
turn 2 - omenspeakerturn 3 - ashiok +2 turn 4 - whatever, bounce, +2turn 5 - +2/-x play their thing, whatever
It's actually pretty nice 3 drop, though as a three drop it's competing with counterspells, having mana up for Dissolve seems much better than playing a PW that needs the counterspell to protect it.
September 16, 2013 12:41 a.m.
Ashiok costs 1 less than Ral and he exiles pieces of your opponents library, he's much better. Especially with scry returning as a mechanic, although Magma Jet is probably the best response to an opponent activating his +2. And if you can protect him until turn 8 and -10 him that's reason enough for your opponent to scoop.
September 16, 2013 2:31 a.m.
The Doctor says... #16
He is not much better.
a) He does not protect himself. Look at every successful planeswalker ever - Elspeth, JTMS, all the Garruks, Karn, Tezzeret, LOTV, Domri, Ajani V, etc., all have an ability that protects themselves. The only good planeswalkers who do not protect themselves are Jace Beleren , who offers cheap, massive card advantage, and Jace, Memory Adept . While J, MA is expensive and does not protect himself, he can provide huge card advantage by drawing a card every turn, or he can just kill them in four/five turns.
b) he does not impact the board. This ties into the first point. Not only does he not impact the board, he does not draw you cards or make them discard. His first ability provides NO ADVANTAGE WHATSOEVER, and you do not want to be tapping out to do that. You may say "What do you mean no advantage to the board, he exiles three cards!" Well yeah, he does, but it doesn't give you any advantage immediately, and three cards is pretty measly. I'd go as far to say that Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded 's first ability is better.
c) his second ability hinges completely on facing a deck with a deck with a lot of creatures, using the plus ability multiple times to have a good chance of hitting a guy, AND have both you and the Ashiok survive to use the -X. It's useless against control, and you can even randomly lose the game by milling 6 noncreatures against an aggro deck.
So to recap, he does not impact the board, his 1st ability is terrible, and his 2nd ability is very situational.
This is why he is bad.
September 16, 2013 2:55 a.m.
detentionsphere says... #17
Well, I was about to quote myself, but that's already happened :)
Yeah, Ral isn't great, but he is certainly better than Ashiok.
September 16, 2013 4:08 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #18
I like the fact that everyone is overlooking the REPLACEMENT he has over Nephalia Drownyard in Esper/Grixis control decks.
He is only a 3 cmc win con that DOES THE SAME THING AS NEPHALIA DROWNYARD ONLY BETTER and has an upside.
Not to mention you don't have to invest mana into using the ability at the end of your opponent's turn after he resolves.
I think he will be SOLID in Esper/Grixis control. He will not fill the role of Liliana of the Veil as well for defense, rather he goes on the offensive instead
Oh yeah, not to mention he can pair up with Jace, Memory Adept to get 13 cards a turn from someone's deck
September 16, 2013 10:02 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #19
To answer the forum question, they should both play well together in Grixis Superfriends :)
September 16, 2013 10:02 a.m.
The Doctor says... #20
He isn't a replacement though.
Nephalia Drownyard is a land. Immune to combat damage and burn, along with Dreadbore .
Ashiok isn't.
September 16, 2013 1:39 p.m.
Ashiok only requires a one time investment of mana however.
September 16, 2013 2:11 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #22
@The Doctor why isn't he a replacement? There were PLENTY of ways to deal with Nephalia Drownyard in Standard:
Acidic Slime
, Ghost Quarter
, and even Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
could keep it tapped.
yes there are ways to remove planeswalkers directly Dreadbore , burn, etc...however you only invest 3 mana for him with a huge upside whereas you had to have 4 lands untapped on your opponent's turn and HOPE that you don't have to counter/remove something so you can use it.
DaggerV: Mana economics...we should teach a class :)
September 16, 2013 4:25 p.m.
detentionsphere says... #23
Exactly what TheDoctor said. Drownyard was good because
a) IT WAS A LAND. This meant that it tapped for mana and did not require you to spend slots in your deck for win conditions, which was huge, allowing you to run 27 lands for Revelation.
b) it did not require you to tap mana on your turn, letting you keep up Revelation, removal, countermagic, and flash creatures,
c) it was immune to being attacked, burned, Dreadbore d, Duress ed, countered, and this meant the inevitability it provided was immense.
So Drownyard is infinitely better.
September 17, 2013 4:03 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #24
I wasn't arguing that Ashiok is better, I'm saying he's a replacement win con for control decks.
For the sake of comparing though, I'll reply to all 3 of your comments above:
a) Yes it was a land. However, with Burning Earth sure to be a thing that actually HURTS control decks if it resolves and basically negates the lifegain you get from Sphinx's Revelation . Having to spend 3 mana per turn to activate leads to your death rather quickly if Burning Earth is active
b) You are correct in that you could leave mana open, however if you had to spend time countering a spell or using it on a removal for your opponent's threat, you are not WINNING the game, you are keeping it at a stalemate
c) I agree that there is more "removal" for planeswalkers in burn, discard, and straight up destroy effects, however at only a one time investment of 3 mana you SHOULD be able to wait until you have 5-6 mana to drop it and have mana to counter their "removal" spell for it. Not to mention you SHOULD be running Thoughtseize yourself now since it's back and can take care of their response before they get a chance to use it.
September 17, 2013 9:17 a.m.
10vernothin says... #25
it DOES nombo with the other dimir bomb Consuming Aberration
September 17, 2013 10:13 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #26
But you wouldn't run Consuming Aberration with Ashiok....Ashiok is used to win by decking your opponent and not through Life Point loss.
September 17, 2013 10:42 a.m.
FaustHarbinger says... #27
Ashiok is neat and all and I can definitely see alot of potential in control or esper control but I'll have to hand this over to man man Ral here... Izzet stick together...
September 17, 2013 11:17 a.m.
RJ_Rozzman says... #29
Ashiok is killer against reanimator, I could see it sideboarded in B/U decks
September 17, 2013 1:43 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #30
Ashiok will be good against aggro decks too. It will hit WAY more often and you can use their own creatures against them.
The turn he comes down he goes to 5 loyalty...nothing to sneeze at.
next turn you -x him and you put any of those exiled creatures on the battlefield under your control.
Not to mention you will have mana up for removal/counterspells if need be to protect him in case you need to +2 him again (a follow up far/away is a GREAT play)
Ral Zarek is my boy to pair with Master of Cruelties for sure, but I think he'll welcome Ashiok to the team nicely
September 17, 2013 2:14 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #31
T1 DS T2 Liliana T3 Ashiok ...are u kidding me. Ashiok has immense value, especially in decks that already have a low creature count and no token gen.
September 17, 2013 3:02 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #32
Can you clarify what you're talking about there? What is DS? And Liliana of the Veil is rotating out of standard...
September 17, 2013 4:45 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #34
oops, I seemed to have strayed into the wrong neighborhood. Thought I was in Modern.
DS = Deathrite Shaman
T1 Fetch + DS = T2 Liliana of the Veil or Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
September 17, 2013 5:10 p.m.
detentionsphere says... #35
a) Control lost to Burning Earth regardless. That's why it started becoming UW instead of Esper/UWR
b) the game is not at a stalemate, since you are in control and dealing with their threats, and you can just Drown the turn after. That's how much inevitability Drownyard gave you.
c) yes, it is only a 3-mana investment, so what if it gets killed? Well, I'm running control. I only want to have to relegate 2-3 slots to win conditions, since I need a bunch of removal, countermagic, and card draw. This means my winconditions need to kill my opponent QUICKLY and BE RESILIENT TO REMOVAL - eg AEtherling . Jace, Memory Adept , as an example of another finisher, is vulnerable to the same amount of removal as Ashiok, but kills them in 4 turns, giving them a tiny window in which to find an answer, while Ashiok takes 10 turns to kill them.
September 18, 2013 1:24 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #36
a) My point was that Nephalia Drownyard required a mana investment each turn, so it COULDN'T win you the game while Burning Earth is active while Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver CAN because you don't have to invest mana each turn for his ability. You are talking about Esper going to U/W which actually removed Nephalia Drownyard from its win cons and thus is no longer valid for this discussion
b) The long game may not be a stalemate, but at that moment in time you are still at a "tie" because you aren't doing anything proactive. You're keeping mana open to deal with your opponent's threats and maybe getting to activate drownyard each turn if they dont' play anything. Yes I understand that you will win the long game, but the longer it gets drawn out the more of a chance you have of getting a tie rather than a win in a tournament
c) I don't agree with only having 2-3 slots for win cons. If your U/W deck is up against my Grixis deck, i will rip your win cons out with Slaughter Games post board or your hand with Thoughtseize , Rakdos's Return , Duress , etc. I used to only run a couple of win cons, but it gave my opponent too much time to find a way to win. I like playing control, but I like to be able to "switch modes" and go on the offensive when I know the time is right
Sorry if I come across as argumentative or offensive..I am not intending that at all. I like debating with people ESPECIALLY ones I can learn from :)
September 18, 2013 9:17 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #37
Imagine If Nephalia Drownyard was a planeswalker that got 2 extra loyalty after each mill,
Is that better than the original land version?
I'd say a bit of yes and no, firstly it's easier to stop, due to the fact in can be killed, but secondly it's better in that it's a threat you can focus on, the fact that it's sitting there going "cooooey, stop me I dare you" might save yourself some life points and allow you to win.
September 18, 2013 9:35 a.m.
detentionsphere says... #38
@harrydemon117: nothing wrong with that, some debate is good for everyone :)
Your points are valid, but I still think they're flawed:
a) sure, Ashiok can win if they have Burning Earth , but if they do have one in play, you probably can't cast any spells, as you're playing against aggro and your life total is already low, and they have about 10 turns to find creatures, since Ashiok kills them so slowly (this is, again, why Jace is better).
b) the point of Drownyard is not of being a fast clock, it's of providing inevitability. In addition to this, at the point in the game where you start Drowning, it's after you've cast a Revelation or two, and you have 7-8 lands in play, so you can cast a counterspell/removal spell and Drownyard in the same turn. Even later, when you have 15 lands and a couple Drownyards in play, you can answer anything and kill them really rapidly.
c) sure, my win condition might get Thoughtseize d in control matchups, but that's what a sideboard is for - against any other deck, you do not want multiple win conditions in your opening hand, because you don't have enough answers and lose before you can cast them. For example, in the UB control I'm going to run post rotation, I'm running 1 AEtherling and 2 Jace in the main - enough to kill consistently, but not enough to flood - plus 2 more AEtherling in the board for control matchups.
September 20, 2013 5:28 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #39
I agree with out about having TOO many win cons in my opening hand. I used to play more of a strictly "control" deck with grixis, but I have since moved it to a midrange with more creatures.
Here's my build so you can see what I mean (I haven't put Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver in yet as I haven't found the room though lol):
I think it will take some time before Ashiok catches on, and I already have rapport with Ral Zarek comboing nicely with Master of Cruelties so I am not forcing Ashiok in until I have some time to see how he actually plays out. Maybe I'm overvaluing him, but I think with the right build he could be incredible
September 20, 2013 9:27 a.m.
detentionsphere says... #40
I can see why Ashiok could be good in your deck, as it's more of a midrange/tapout control deck than something like Esper or UB. I like the deck, especially the sweet Frostburn Weird tech, but I do have one criticism: NEEDS MORE Anger of the Gods :) Seriously, run 4, the card is insane.
September 20, 2013 4:54 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #41
It IS insane... It's hard to "narrow down" the final cut before making the team :)
September 23, 2013 9:10 a.m.
Ashiok is kind of like a Nephalia Drownyard but more suspectible to removal, and with more utility.
September 23, 2013 10:57 a.m.
dragonestea says... #43
I think people are very much underestimating Ashiok. He's got enough loyalty that he's hard to get off the board, he comes down on turn 3, and he mills for free every turn. Not to mention every one of his three abilities is either a potential win condition or a way to prevent your own win condition from being disrupted. My Playset has been ordered. I'll be laughing when the naysayers have to drop $200+ for theirs.
September 23, 2013 3:17 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #44
I don't think he's get to $50 a piece (for non foil), but I think he could get to $25+ IF he takes off like I expect him to
September 24, 2013 8:12 a.m.
The Doctor says... #45
The fact that you think that he's going to get to $50 is laughable in itself. If Liliana of the Veil isn't $50, this guy sure as shit isn't going to be.
September 24, 2013 2:54 p.m.
dragonestea says... #46
I'm pretty sure lilly hit 50 a one point.
Besides, I was exaggerating.
September 24, 2013 3:57 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #47
Lilly DID hit $50 for a little while as she was a 3 CMC walker that did a lot. If Ashiok could protect himself immediately like Lilly did then yes I could see him jumping to $50 plus...but he doesn't.
He'll prolly get to between $20-$30 somewhere
September 24, 2013 4:26 p.m.
I guess no one DID wrote properly last week, I guess
brn3445 says... #2
what name does the set after theros has?
September 15, 2013 11:45 p.m.