reaper of the wilds or drain rhino?
Standard forum
Posted on Sept. 14, 2014, 11:40 p.m. by EmblemMan
So I did not want to put this under deck help because this is more of a "which card do you think is better overall in standard". Therefore, what do you think? Reaper of the Wilds or Siege Rhino as a four drop in junk (midrange). I think they both have upsides but I am leaning towards, at least mainboard, reaper of the wilds because of the scry and the hexproof.
I have Reaper in my deck Junk Value Town because I enjoy the scry and because it makes for a better defensive threat. Reaper is also slightly easier to cast and can be played in a wider range of colors because BG instead of BGW.
For the most part, I think Rhino's better for aggro or mid-range. The 6-point life swing is huge and he's got Trample on a relevant body.
September 15, 2014 3:25 a.m.
MangoPunch says... #5
Siege Rhino 99% of the time
1% of the time versus lots of spot removal Reaper of the Wilds
September 15, 2014 10:25 a.m.
trentfaris242 says... #6
I vote Reaper of the Wilds . Easier to cast, better card advantage, better combat advantage, and better evasion.
September 15, 2014 10:35 a.m.
Reaper doesn't give card advantage, it's worse in combat and it doesn't have evasion where as rhino has trample so it can get through chump blockers.
September 15, 2014 12:13 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #8
Reaper gives scrying on creature death. That's a form of card advantage. Deathtouch is a better mechanic than Trample on a 4 power body, especially when there are so many 3 and 4 toughness guys seeing play in the meta. Trample is pretty much only a better mechanic aggro based decks. There's only one of those seeing a lot of play right now, Rabble Red. Since you're playing a midrange deck (which consequently counters aggro), trample doesn't matter. It's a win-more condition.
September 15, 2014 12:21 p.m.
Scrying is definitely not card advantage... Trample is also much better than death tough on a bigger creature that probably isn't dying in combat with 5 toughness anyways.
September 15, 2014 12:31 p.m.
Something tells me you haven't been playing very long
September 15, 2014 12:32 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #11
There's no need to be coarse.
Scrying is a way of card utility and deck manipulation, which may result in advantage.
In a vacuum, I would agree that trample is better on a 4-power body than deathtouch. You'll be killing a lot of things with 4-power pretty handily, but it's also a good point that the meta is a good indicator of how well a card does. If you're consistently playing against large bodies, deathtouch very well may be better to defend against.
September 15, 2014 12:49 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #12
Scrying isn't a form of card advantage? Better go tell the Legacy players they've been doing it wrong by setting up their draws all of these years.
You're correct in saying that Trample is better than Deathtouch on a bigger creature. The problem is that 4 power is not big. It's pretty average in Standard. For your education, the 3+ toughness creatures currently seeing play or upcoming in Khans:
queue elevator music
Courser of Kruphix
Sylvan Caryatid
Fleecemane Lion
Chief Engineer
Herald of Torment
Nylea's Disciple
Gray Merchant of Asphodel
Polukranos, World Eater
Stormbreath Dragon
Arbor Colossus
Prognostic Sphinx
Surrak Dragonclaw
Wingmate Roc
Savage Knuckleblade
Anafenza, the Foremost
Reaper of the Wilds
Butcher of the Horde
I could go on, but I think you get the idea. We're not talking about which is better in a vacuum. We're talking about which is better in the upcoming Standard environment, and 4-power Trample does next to nothing. Deathtouch isn't great on a 4-power, but it can shut down those hard to deal with 5/X and 6/X guys.
We can't just have a calm debate on this site anymore can we? We have to act like children (ya, I'm calling you a child) and insult people for absolutely no reason.
September 15, 2014 12:59 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #13
This is the song I was picturing during that post, for your entertainment: Girl from Ipaneme.
September 15, 2014 1:04 p.m.
Scrying is not card advantage, it's not remotely close to being card advantage. It's card selection. There's also only 1 card with scry that's played in legacy and that's preordain which sees very little play.
September 15, 2014 1:14 p.m.
Rhino gets my vote. My Azban deck that I am working on have Athreos. Whenever the rhino dies with Athreos on the board, my opponent choice becomes: Pay 3 life to keep him in the grave, or take 3 damage and I gain 3 life
September 15, 2014 10:26 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #17
He is nuts with Ajani Steadfast
. Fill up the text box and slam through Polukranos, World Eater
?
September 15, 2014 10:35 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #18
Siege Rhino for the same reason I had to make the argument 100 times when it was Lotleth Troll vs Reaper of the Wilds Trample > Deathtouch...
Yes that isn't a vacuum statement. The Rhino will be in a deck with +1/+1 mechanics to get bigger. Reaper is gonna be death touching tokens all day.
Look... Reaper of the Wilds has not been a staple in any deck since it's creation and won't be because the card sucks.
September 16, 2014 1:18 p.m.
I would just like to say APPLE01DOJ that lotleth troll and reaper are not comparable at all
September 16, 2014 2:04 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #20
I don't think so either but I've had to make that exact argument countless times because people would always suggest I replace Lotleth Troll with Reaper of the Wilds since it's inception.
Truthfully I think Polukranos, World Eater is better than both Siege Rhino and Reaper of the Wilds
September 16, 2014 2:53 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #21
I like that if Siege Rhino eats Suspension Field or Banishing Light that Naturalize or Revoke Existence may make it worthwhile to free...
September 16, 2014 2:57 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #22
Lotleth Troll and Reaper of the Wilds aren't even in the same CMC spot. There's no way you could compare them accurately.
Neither Reaper of the Wilds nor Siege Rhino are fantastic cards. Polukranos, World Eater IS a better option, but I don't think that's what OP was asking about.
That being said, why waste a Naturalize on a Siege Rhino under Banishing Light when you could just hexproof a Reaper of the Wilds ? I can see the synergy with Athreos, God of Passage , and that's not a bad idea, but it requires setup and maintenance.
I think it ultimately depends on what else you're running as to which is better. It also heavily depends on the meta.
September 16, 2014 3:24 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #23
Yeah I've not seen a ton of Reaper, thinking about it. Maybe in Jund Monsters? I stick by my earlier evaluation that she's not actually all that snazzy. I don't really care much about scry 1 on death and she doesn't even have deathtouch unless you're leaving up mana to give it to her. Not that deathtouch is really relevant and leaving up mana for her hexproof is a gigantic pain.
also, the case for Naturalize over activating hexproof on Reaper is that naturalize also saves other things targeted with banishing light and also axing our dear, beloved, utterly annoying friend, Courser of Kruphix
That said I'm not super sure about the rhino, I have a hard time judging how reliably three-color creatures can be played in this standard and how worthwhile three-color creatures have to be to get there in competitive constructed. I do overall like him better than Reaper tho.
September 17, 2014 12:03 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #24
I'll breakdown why Reaper of the Wilds is a mediocre card for constructed Magic. Compare the two cards:
Siege Rhino cost 4 mana with 3 different colored symbols, usually a problem but with the current fixing it's consistently achievable. Has a EtB effect garuenteeing value. 4 mana for a six point life swing is acceptable, tacking on a 4/5 that trades for value and tramples is a lot of value. On turn 4 can have dealt 7 damage. Punishes aggro and offsets pain from lands. Plays well with either Ajani, Elspeth, and Sorin. Encourages you to curve out and gain advantages in board position.
Reaper of the Wilds is 4 mana and has 2 different colored symbols, no problem. Has 2 activated by mana abilities, a triggered ability, and a 4/5 body. With no further investment you get an a point of toughness more than a vanilla 4cmc, it doesn't give a free scry for biting the dust. To play it protected costs 6 mana where she's seriously outclassed. On curve it gives little value. Encourages you to leave mana up and not play threats. Can give value in a removal heavy list by offering card selection. Allows you to counter opponents removal for 2 mana a pop, it's way to get X for 1's. Good blocker but poor at stabilizing and then pulling ahead. 4 damage possibly delt by turn 4.
When you weigh all of that the Rhino comes in way ahead. There are better things to do with 4 mana in 
and 
than Reaper of the Wilds
.
September 17, 2014 1:32 a.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #25
It entirely depends on the deck in question. If you're playing a lot of threats, Rhino is better since he gives you a lot of value upon ETB; when combined with other threats, he can help to quickly overwhelm your opponent. Reaper is better in decks with lots of removal and limited threats since it can protect itself and does well with dying creatures.
September 17, 2014 12:42 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #26
My problem with Reaper, even in control shells, is that she's not really a 4-drop. If she's one of your only creatures and you want her to stick, then she's a 6-drop, or a 7-drop if you want to hold mana for a removal spell. And she's a fairly lackluster 6-drop.
Her scry ability isn't exactly relevant all the time either because a lot of removal is actually exile removal. Suppression Field , Banishing Light , Anger of the Gods , Magma Spray , Silence the Believers , etc.
September 17, 2014 1:06 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #27
Uh, Suspension Field , not Suppression Field .
September 17, 2014 1:14 p.m.
Kingcosmo7 says... #28
My vote goes to reaper. I'm not going to say it's better than rhinos in every deck, but I think it's very underplayed. Obviously both cards have their advantages.
Siege Rhino has synergy with cards like Bow of Nylea , has more Whip of Erebos value, and is good against chump blockers.
Reaper of the Wilds has synergy with cards like Nylea, God of the Hunt , is much better in the late game, easier to cast, and the scrying is huge! Especially with a board wipe! Destroy the field, and then scry to your next threat.
Also, considering the meta, I think reaper is much better for mid-slow speed decks. Not to mention that reaper Kills rhinos in combat, and still lives.
Even if you're set on using the pro tour winning rhinos for your abzan deck, I would atleast suggest sideboarding reaper for the inevitable mirror match.
October 18, 2014 3:18 p.m.
@Dalektable: Damn, I got ninja'd. Was just about to post this.
Regardless, reading this thread made my head hurt.
October 18, 2014 8:32 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #32
So, not to hijack the thread (okay totally going to hijack) but I must pose a question about Reaper of the Wilds . Does it hold a place within Sultai Control?
October 19, 2014 12:33 a.m.
CanadianShinobi I'd like to think so. I'm running it in my budget sultai and when it sticks it's a pain for my friends.
I do believe reaper is good but not sure if it beats siege rhino, after a few games with my friends (Running the big guy himself) and as previously mentioned I think it really depends on the deck in question. In my friends aggresive Abzan deck rhino is the obvious choice. but in my sultai deck, I have been happier to to draw into my Reaper of the Wilds over my Polukranos, World Eater simply because it can avoid removal (Given at a cost of a measly 1G) and can be given deathtouch. It all depends on your deck and what your goals are.
GoldGhost012 says... #2
Siege Rhino gets my vote, especially for more aggro-ish strategies. It affects the board immediately, and trample plus buff bod means it'll close the game out faster. Reaper of the Wilds is much slower and doesn't immediately have an effect, but gets better late game since it can protect itself.
Then again, I'm running Rhino in a more control-y shell, so what do I know. :)
September 14, 2014 11:46 p.m.