Rise of aggro
Standard forum
Posted on Feb. 23, 2015, 4:41 p.m. by kyuuri117
Has anyone else noticed that as the weeks go on, aggro is just getting more and more popular?
We had blue white heroic (which is still around), we had abzan aggro (which is still around), then red white heroic (which is still around). Now, we have mono-red aggro, we have mono-red heroic (sort of viable, not quite there yet), black/white warrior aggro (again, sort of viable, not quite there yet), we have jeskai heroic (two top eights this weekend), we have Naya aggro (just top 8'd), and lastly we have red/white aggro (non heroic, two top eights this weekend). And every single one of them is either super viable or almost super viable.
I like format diversity as much as the next person, but seriously, this is getting to be a little out of hand. Most of these decks are capable of killing before an opponent gets to turn 4 or 5 if the opponent just draws wrong, regardless of what they are playing.
I know WoTC is trying to make more standard more "interactive" and less "controlling" but this is getting ridiculous. And honestly? I somehow doubt any of these decks are going to get worse with Dragons of Tarkir. It's not like wizards is going to print another wrath in the set, we already have five even if they are all mediocre.
I respect people who enjoy playing aggro. I do. Everyone enjoys different decks. But the four mana wraths need to come back.
I think the format is healthy for the most part, I just think there needs to be a four mana wrath.
February 23, 2015 5:03 p.m.
Don't know what wotc was smoking when they thought it would be a good idea to not have one. All of these aggro decks have counter spells or protection effects anyway, no reason to not have them.
February 23, 2015 5:04 p.m.
ZooGambler says... #6
I think if we had a four mana wrath, we'd see considerably less midrange decks out there and significantly less token strategies as well, my 5 mana wraths have been working fine for me honestly.
February 23, 2015 5:23 p.m.
The five mana wraths are fine for now. But consider this: they don't print a usable wrath in Dragons. Theros and M15 rotate this fall. We lose bile blight, drown in sorrow, anger of the gods, perilous vault, hero's downfall, and banishing light. We have... almost nothing left. Maybe we get another good two or three drop removal spell. That's probably the case. Hell, maybe we don't. But we lose the aggro wrath cards. Unless we get something kickass in Origins, there's going to be an issue here.
February 23, 2015 5:28 p.m.
ZooGambler says... #8
I think they realize how much is rotating out for control decks out there. They'll probably include some sort of wrath spell/removal in origins.
February 23, 2015 5:30 p.m.
mathimus55 says... #9
I feel like the same issue always comes up. When some power card there is usually something to fill it's role(or at least try to). I agree that RTR/Theros was the worst standard in a while. Literally 3 decks to play and everything else was just...crap. I think the meta is super healthy right now. There are several different ways to play aggro, midrange and control, but control to a little lesser extent. I'm kinda suprised B/W control hasn't been more of a thing w/ them having the 2 wipes in the format. The fact that the meta is so healthy I think shows that there doesn't need to be a 4 mana wrath in order for control to be good but not oppressive. U/W/x control from last rotation was literally the most boring thing to watch/play.
February 23, 2015 5:39 p.m.
I wouldn't get too fearful over the loss of all those aggro-hate cards. WOTC, whether you want to believe it or not, has been consistently doing a better job at creating a solid metagame. While there will be a loss of a tremendous amount of aggro removal and such, there will also be a tremendous amount of aggro lost.
Goblin Rabblemaster will be rotating along with these aggro hate cards. The same is true for everything heroic, Frenzied Goblin, Hammerhand, Stoke the Flames, Lightning Strike, Raise the Alarm, Fleecemane Lion, the painlands, Mana Confluence, Thoughtseize (to take those pesky wraths), etc, etc, etc.
There are a great many things that will be rotating. Caryatid and Courser. Elspeth. Nykthos. Stormbreath. Nissa. Genesis hydra. Constellation...the list goes on and on. When rotation hits, there is going to be a vast change to how games are played - I assure you. What I suggest is to look at what has been printed since khans came out and begin to understand what the block metagame is going to look like. Aggro will look different than it does now.
I personally have a hunch that a 2-mana creature killer spell is coming to us, and that Utter End will fill the role of planeswalker removal for control, but that's just me.
February 23, 2015 6:17 p.m.
mathimus55 U/W/x was probably one of the most fun control mirror matches to have existed in years. And it was no worse to watch than mono blue agro or mono black midrange. And i'm not disagreeing with the fact that this is a healthy format, or that a diverse format is good. I just don't think a four mana sweeper is what contributed to U/W control being too good last season, or that a four mana sweeper would be unhealthy in this format.
Spootyone Yea, I know wizards is usually on game with card releases. And I know a lot of the aggro and midrange stuff will be rotating as well. I'm just thinking that, in the next six months before rotation, if aggro continues as it is, it's going to feel stale. Maybe with Ugin in the format, a four mana sweeper is too good. I don't know. All I do know, is that as a non-aggro player, trying to sideboard against all the tier 1 decks is a huge headache. And then when you take all the tier 2 brews that are impossible to sideboard against, i'm just personally not finding this format much fun.
There's no elegance for this format (and that's not saying there isn't strategy. There is, it's just kinda uninteresting). It's basically draw a good hand, curve out your threats, and hope your deck topdecks the haymakers better than your opponent.
February 23, 2015 6:33 p.m.
kyuuri117: Now that last paragraph is one I can relate to, and it's probably one of the biggest reasons that I've decided to take a small hiatus from the game.
It sort of felt to me that no matter what caliber, color, or archetype of deck I built, I always ended up at the mercy of random chance. Be it bad mulligans or bad matchups or a local metagame that is impossible to predict and then (as you mentioned) having so many strategies to sideboard against, it began to feel like I was going to FNM and simply flipping a coin every match to see if I won. While I understand one cannot let that get to them and that there are more bits to the format than that, it just didn't feel like it anymore.
The whole situation just kind of disheartened me as a very competitive person. The format isn't stale, but it's almost impossible to metagame against. And so it almost comes down to winning the die roll and getting lands in your opener.
February 23, 2015 7 p.m.
The format isn't impossible to metagame against. It's incredibly difficult to metagame against, and as a result the players that do so successfully have been seeing greater success than others. Having a powerful sideboard plan makes all the difference in this format, whether it be full sets of Disdainful Stroke or slide-under threats like Fleecemane Lion out of the board, not to mention the rise of Mastery of the Unseen. Great sideboard cards are becoming the hallmark of successful decks in this format.
I have been playing Abzan Midrange/Control since the start of KTK and the evolution of my deck as the metagame flows has been astounding to observe. The importance and viability of different cards are constantly shifting and I enjoy trying to decipher what the important cards to consider are.
Also, aggro is super fun to play and to play against. I really like how many aggro decks there are and how many angles they can assault you from. It provides really interesting deckbuilding and play challenges.
February 23, 2015 7:25 p.m.
I think my meta is very healthy right now... A lot of people play aggro so about 3 players decided to play green devotion or R/G ramp to counter them. Then, about 3 players play control to capitalize on the ramp decks. At first I played U/B control, but once I saw no one was playing abzan midrange or something with planeswalkers I switched for Sultai Control with only 2 counter spells and a shitload of removal. This way I have better matchups than U/B against aggro and good matchups against the ramp decks. Finally aggro decks don't run Hero's Downfall so my planeswalkers are a real problem to them...
There is always a way to metagame!
February 23, 2015 8:10 p.m.
For local FNM's yes, for SCG Opens... not so much. Sideboarding against 20-30 people is completely different than side boarding against 300-500 people. Spending fifty dollars, a few hours driving, gas money, hotel money, and time playing to get your ass handed to you because of some random brews and fifteen types of aggro decks, all of which need specific answers, is just an annoying waste of time.
February 23, 2015 8:15 p.m.
I'm gonna cite Gerard Fabiano here : ''As far as any of the aggressive matchups go, many of them have overlapping similarities. Abzan, Temur, and R/W Aggro all try to apply maximum pressure with their own respective element of disruption. Abzan has Thoughtsieze; Temur has counterspells like Disdainful Stroke, Temur Charm, and Stubborn Denial; and R/W Aggro has burn like Stoke the Flames and Lightning Strike.''
I think it's possible to have a general strategy that can play good against all aggro decks. It's normal to have trouble sideboarding against 300 decks if you play a linear strategy. What decks do you play kyuuri117?
February 23, 2015 8:31 p.m.
kyuuri117: See, I would actually argue that depending on where you go, it can be worse at FNM. In fact, that's where my problems are taking place currently. The place I typically go to is full of people who want to run random brews every week and the "spikes" are always running decks that are not highly represented by the current competitive metagame. For example, you mentioned the rise of aggro -- which is the true situation. Well, alright. Because of this, I decided to put together a highly refined version of Abzan midrange/control that was absolutely ready to face aggro.
I got there and 75% of the players were playing various UB control builds with the other 25% running random "getcha" brews and I floundered. This is the sort of thing that frustrates me, personally.
February 23, 2015 8:32 p.m.
EssTea i've been running UB control since khans was released. I know it's one of the most difficult decks to play in the format currently, but i've had some good success with it. Maybe I should switch to Sultai control though with the rise of aggro.
Spootyone Yea I can see that being annoying. We have this one guy who's constantly trying to make UR Artifacts work, but other than that we generally have a good representation of the meta. A lot of abzan midrange and aggro, we've got ascendency combo, both types, we've got G/R midrange, G/R aggro, B/W warriors (three-four different decks unfortunately), a good amount of U/B, a good amount of jeskai aggro, and we're starting to get some good amount of R/W aggro (it's not really an aggro deck but we can call it that).
We do also get the brews, but they aren't like, "getcha" brews, they are legitimate attempts at actual different decks. But yes, that does sound frustrating.
February 23, 2015 9:19 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #19
Spootyone, that really seems like a very, odd, complaint.
Essentially, you're disappointed that the players at your FNM aren't playing the decks that they 'should' be playing, and as a result, they're beating you. It sounds to me that, at least when it comes to you, they're playing exactly the decks they should be playing.
If you're building your deck to the GP metagame, and ignoring the local metagame that you're actually playing in... well, you're not metagaming properly.
February 23, 2015 11:17 p.m.
Named_Tawyny: I guess I should be more clear.
This is not me complaining about being metagamed against. I'm aware of how certain decks beat other decks and how to adjust (for the most part). The issue comes when there is a severe and highly abrupt change in a meta. This is what I'm referring to.
See, the lgs I go to isn't just comprised of control players that I can undermine by putting together an aggro list. The difficulty I face (and I'm sure others do as well) is the fact that the players simply don't seem to follow any path whatsoever. Most people who play there DON'T metagame, and simply have all the cards to play whatever deck they want to that night. So essentially what you end up with is a random metagame each week that you truly cannot build around or prepare for.
The winners each week tend to be in 1 of 2 categories. 1) A rogue player piloting something like Ensoul Artifact that no one was prepared for and who got lucky with a fairly glass cannon deck choice, or 2) One of the various other players who happened to luckily grab a deck that paired well against the other decks that night and who didn't get mana screwed/flooded.
I know I'm probably beginning to come off a little immature in denoting wins to things like "not getting mana screwed", but truly this is how things tend to be. I've had good weeks where I'm the guy who randomly got paired against good matchups and those are nice, so it does go both ways. But the issue for me is that there doesn't seem to be much in the way of progressing my playing skill and win percentage. And thus, I stated that I feel I could prepare and metagame more easily for a tournament than I could for FNM.
Ultimately, FNM victories feel more and more like winning the lottery to me.
February 24, 2015 1:13 a.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #21
With regards to the 4 mana sweeper, I would just point out that there are no ways to save your entire board from a wipe in the current Standard besides counterspells (which seems justified after Supreme Verdict).
The last format had Boros Charm, Golgari Charm, and Rootborn Defenses. Hell, no one ever played Ready / Willing because it wasn't good enough.
And in the format before that, you could hardly justify running a creature that didn't have an ETB or death trigger (or both...Thragtusk...) because there were so many that had them. Doomed Traveler was a ho-hum 1 drop, you had Undying creatures, Huntmaster of the Fells Flip and other Transform dudes... THAT format needed a 4 mana sweeper. Outside of Siege Rhino, that kind of value doesn't exist in aggro today.
February 24, 2015 2:32 a.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #22
Should also mention that conditional 3cmc sweeps are very strong right now. What INN-RTR control players would have given to have access to Anger of the Gods.
February 24, 2015 2:39 a.m.
I think we could have a 4 mana sweeper that has a suicide/disadvantage note to it like ''lose three life'', ''you cannot play a land next turn''... Or maybe something like ''your opponent chooses one creature that returns to his hand, destroy all creatures"?
February 24, 2015 9:51 a.m.
I think that Phyrexian mana would help balance all of this out.
5-6 Mana sweepers that use Phyrexian mana allows for higher cost sweeper that can be offset by life loss.
Some "Cleansing" Card Name
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures, they can't be regenerated.
CMC... Still requires you play ... Can be cast for 4 mana if you pay 4 life, or 5 mana if you pay 2.
Of course this would require them to use Phyrexian mana again, so it's likely limited to a Phyrexian set.
February 24, 2015 10:02 a.m.
That's worse than what we have right now. Control decks don't want to be paying life to wrath.
February 24, 2015 12:24 p.m.
mathimus55 says... #26
I think the 5 cost wraths are right where we want to be. I've played aggro and midrange both in Theros and Khans standard and dabbled in control recently and I think across the board there is the best balance we can find. Adding the 4 mana wrath would push control over the edge and I don't think that's what Wizards wants. Any color can play into any strategy and I don't think there was a time that was possible in standard. Wizards doesn't like to pinhole colors into doing only one thing and instead just have their tendencies lean that way. Temur could probably make a controlling deck work, we've seen all sorts of Mardu color strategies. Sultai and esp recently w/ Saito's mono black aggro is feasible too. Every clan/color combo could feasibly play into whatever strategy you want to play and have it do at least ok on the FNM level.
Like I said before, each rotation takes certain answers out but replaces them with something else to fill that role. Sometimes it's in different colors or whatever, but control will always have a place, same w/ aggro and midrange. There isn't a "simply better" deck out there right now. That's the sign that we don't need a 4 mana wrath or an amazing aggro 1 drop(though some are close) because no one style is pushing the others out.
Servo_Token says... #2
Yes to four mana wraths, and also yes to an aggro dominated format. It is much more accessible to people than say a control oriented one because most of the cards are at the common uncommon rarity. Good on wizards to have this current format that anyone can get into.
Honestly, I see no reason to not enjoy this format from a business perspective. no one is complaining because they can't afford a mandatory playset of $20 Thragtusks, no one is complaining about Sphinx's Revelation being oppressive, it's just pick your favorite / most accessible aggro deck and go to town. If you want to meta game against it, play a ramp strategy, as is currently the case with those that can afford the playset of ugins.
This format is pretty sweet competitively right now, is what i'm getting at. FRF made everything just so much better than last season.
February 23, 2015 4:45 p.m.