Shock lands vs. Scry lands
Standard forum
Posted on Jan. 30, 2014, 11:05 p.m. by LuckMisesack
Which type of land do you enjoy having in your Standard deck more and why?
Shock lands (e.g. Blood Crypt
, Stomping Ground
) or Scry lands (e.g. Temple of Malice
,Temple of Abandon
)?
LuckMisesack says... #3
@Cobthecobbler do you typically leave out scry lands all together?
January 30, 2014 11:13 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #4
Shock lands are strickly better for two reasons:
-- The ability to play them untapped
-- They are "actual" dual lands (Fetch lands can be used to grab them, and cards such as Dragonskull Summit
can come into play untapped because of them; this is not so with scry lands)
January 30, 2014 11:15 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #5
Unfortunately, no. In standard at least, if you're going to make a 3-color deck, it's necessary to have a small amount of them in there for added consistency.
I personally have found this season of standard to be in favor of mono-coloured strategies, so I'm running RDW, and I don't have to worry about scry-lands.
However, in my theoretical Jund deck (post-BNG, I LIKE. BIG. HORNS AND I CAN NOT LIE), I run a total of 4. This way, I'm almost guaranteed one per game for fixing, and the scry might help.
But overall I'd rather have shocks in there.
January 30, 2014 11:18 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #6
Scry lands because I play control and don't care if the game goes to turn >9000. I just want to set my deck.
January 30, 2014 11:18 p.m.
LuckMisesack says... #7
@ThatBlueMage control decks are where I assumed scry lands worked best, but do you typically leave out shock lands?
January 30, 2014 11:30 p.m.
There is no leaving out the other land, You need to run both. Standard is a format where you're forced to play certain cards. You can't get away with running one and not the other.
January 30, 2014 11:36 p.m.
I play with both shocks and scrys but give priority to shocks.
January 30, 2014 11:38 p.m.
As Cobthecobbler stated previously, it depends on the tempo of your deck. Mana curve and fixing are also important. If you're looking for a blanket statement, I might say aggro wants shock no scry, midrange wants shocks and maybe scry, control wants both (excepting mono-anything, of course).
January 30, 2014 11:38 p.m.
I'm running a U/B control deck, kind of a take on MBD with U splashed. Running 4x Temple of Deceit allows me to fix my land while keeping my wallet a little happier. Entering tapped doesn't hurt too much, and the scry is extraordinarily helpful.
January 30, 2014 11:38 p.m.
Shocklands are strictly better in any kind of deck. Scrylands are barely playable but are a necessary evil in the format due to the need for mana fixing
January 30, 2014 11:42 p.m.
AussieBloke says... #13
Definitely shock lands, way more versatile. I run a deck with Rakdos, Lord of Riots and when born of the gods comes out I'll probably run 4 shock lands, four scry lands and four gate's, cause I need the right colours on turn 4 and I don't care how slow it goes after that. Having said that, it sucks late game needing that extra land, and it comes in tapped. But, eventually, the Ravnica block will rotate, taking its great lands with it... Then people will be begging for more dual colour lands.
January 30, 2014 11:43 p.m.
LuckMisesack says... #14
How about devotion lands (i.e. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx ) in a two or three color deck? Drawing more than one a game is painful because of the legendary rule. If you play them, do you play 4x?
January 30, 2014 11:52 p.m.
You're generally not running them in most 2-3 colour decks. They're mostly played in the devotion decks which are pretty much all mono coloured. They're usually played as a 2-3 of. 4 is a bit too much since you don't want to be drawing multiples, however with the new legendary rules there are some ways you're able to abuse drawing into multiple of them
January 30, 2014 11:59 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #16
In every standard season, there are cards (namely lands) that are necessary to run, despite the overall power level (or lack thereof) of the cards in question. In this case, that just happens to be these Scrylands,
The "necessary evil" rule is especially true for these cards, being that they're dual lands. Fixing is completely necessary and a 3 color deck will still get mana screwed even if it runs 4 of each shockland in its colors. Enter scrylands. Dropping 3 or 4, maybe 6 basic lands for these can screw up your tempo if your forced to play them late, or you get too many of them, but the fixing is absolutely necessary for the decks that need it.
However, there's a reason that the Shock lands are played eternally and the scrylands can't escape standard. If the reason isn't obvious enough, I'll simplify it by saying this: There are two cycles of budget dual lands that are ten times better than these: The pain lands (Adarkar Wastes , Karplusan Forest , etc.) and the Check lands (Dragonskull Summit , Glacial Fortress ).
The pain lands enter in untapped, and their drawback is that every time you tap them for mana, you take 1 damage. That 1 damage is barely ever relevant for the decks that can afford to run them. These decks are either fast (see:U/G infect) or have some kind of cushioning for the life loss. They might gain life, or not rely on the painlands too often for fixing, using them only when absolutely necessary, often in the earliest parts of the game. These lands are also used in EDH as effective fixing because the loss of life is close to irrelevant.
Check lands enter in untapped unless you control the aforementioned basic land types (Back to shocklands, these two land cycles synergize greatly together). The reason to run this cycle is obvious.
And the honorable mention goes to the quicklands (Darkslick Shores , Copperline Gorge ). They enter in untapped if it's within the first two turns of the game. Running a few of these can kick your deck off the ground at first, and it makes mulligans more advantageous to you if you can't get the right colors (meaning hopefully you draw into a quickland).
My point is, the scry lands are a bad land cycle and they work in standard because they are a forced, and necessary, cycle of cards to run.
January 31, 2014 12:02 a.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #17
@HastyNoob you can still run 3 or 4 Nykthos in a 2 or 3 color deck, because of the new legendary rule. Basically you can chain them so that your mana pool explodes,
Tap the existing one for devotion to X, then play your land for turn (Nykthos), sacrificing the tapped nykthos, and tap it again to double what you just got. Then you have a ton of mana to play around with for that phase.
January 31, 2014 12:05 a.m.
LuckMisesack says... #18
@Cobthecobbler thanks I wonders how that worked. I'm asking these questions because I realized I made the mistake of acquiring the scry lands before the shock lands and now my tempo is suffering in my Xenagosness Gruulness deck.
January 31, 2014 12:19 a.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #19
It's okay if you're playing casually. If you plan to go out to an FNM though, or something slightly more competitive than casual, the shocklands you'll see become necessary in keeping your deck consistant.
January 31, 2014 12:22 a.m.
fatty15501 says... #20
Ok to everyone who says the scry lands slow you down this is mostly not the case. A scry land may come into play tapped however standard is slightly slower than modern or other formats. This translates to the vast majority of first spells cast being cast on turn 2. Therefore if you play a scry land turn one you are actually advancing your game-play by one turn or becoming clairvoyant. This does not slow you down. As has been my experience drafting Theros and RTR block hundreds of times the difference between the two can cost you the game with either. if you would otherwise be at 5 life and you pay 2 Lightning Bolt and countless other spells kill you. If you are a in a pinch and need to cast multiple spells to live one more turn then the Scrys can be your downfall. They are both extremely situational. I run both in my RUW Nivmagus Elemental deck and 99% of the time the Shocks come in tapped. Having both affords you the opportunity to take advantage of mana fixing regardless of which one you draw. In a 2 color deck I would say pick one and go with it and sideboard the other (play based on the deck your facing). In anything higher than two color your probably going to need both. If the scry land is the difference between a drop for the turn and not than the deck needs tweaking.
February 6, 2014 9:58 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #21
If you are running a two colour or three colour deck, you need to use as many shocklands as you can, and then add in scry lands afterwards if needed.
In my deck:
Revel In The Power Of A Jund Blitzkrieg
I have 12 shocklands, 4 temples of abandon and 2 shrines to nyx, and 4 forests. I could add temple's of malice/ the golgari one when it comes out. But it would slow down the deck too much. The four temples i have might be a mistake, time will tell.
February 6, 2014 11:13 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #22
@ HastyNoob running 4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is a mistake in any colour deck, drawing into more than one of these a match is a disaster. Although i can see a way round it, tap 2 lands and the shrine add 4 mana, play another shrine sac the old one, pay 2 tap add 4 mana for a total of 6, play big fatty. But still i'd rather draw into any other land.
February 6, 2014 11:16 a.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #23
@fatty15501 The sad truth is that no matter what format you're playing, a land that enters in tapped is still slowing you down. Factoring in that in standard right now, 90% of decks want a turn one play, whether it's Thoughtseize , Rakdos Cackler /Legion Loyalist , or Cloudfin Raptor , they still want it. Having to play two one drops on turn two, or having to play a two drop on turn 3 is far from ideal. And then later in the game when you're mana screwed and you finally draw into land, and it's a temple, you should just concede because you're opponent has a huge tempo advantage and probably will beat you in a few turns anyway, if not the next.
I don't care if it fixes your mana, or provides you with some clairvoyance. It's still way too slow to consider them "good". They are a Necessary Evil.
February 7, 2014 12:29 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #24
I was under the impression mono-black didn't want to thoughtseize on turn 1. And you missed Elvish Mystic
February 7, 2014 12:43 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #25
It depends. Really just depends on your opponent. A T1 Thoughtseize against any aggressive deck is definitely not hindering you.
And yes, I did lol, I forgot about Llanowar Elves 2.0
February 7, 2014 12:52 p.m.
I run control and normally prefer scry lands. The tempo cost is fine as I'm able to drop to 24/25 lands and still see my colours.A mana dork or two, preferably caryatids, take up the spaces freed up and negate any tempo loss.Using scry lands I can consistently drop elspeth turn 5, or turn 6 and leave a counterspell open
Cobthecobbler says... #2
Shock lands. The fact that the the temples enter tapped hinders the tempo of most decks is a dealbreaker that the scry just doesn't make up for.
January 30, 2014 11:10 p.m.