So Kruphix has been declared bad...
Standard forum
Posted on May 12, 2014, 11:36 p.m. by NixTheThird
But I would love to hear some really solid debates for why Kruphix, God of Horizons will or will not find a home in Standard. I'm not saying I think it'll be the next sleeper card (e.g. Desecration Demon , for better or worst went from bulk to high of $15 a pop). I'm more just wondering what kind of tech would have to come into play for Kruphix to go from weak to even just a solid support card?
Clearly the first ability is one that simply does not come up unless you plan it out hard (a la Sphinx's Revelation ) or are having just a spectacularly bad time (but somehow managed to get a 5 drop on the board before then?).
But some nagging doubt in my brain tells me the second ability should be a rather nice bonus to multiple kinds of decks: ramp mana storage, x-cost spell decks hitting harder come to mind.
Maybe it's the 5 cmc that puts Kruphix into heavy hitter territory: by the time you have 5 mana in most decks, you want to start putting down more Kalonian Hydra and less pseudo-ramp.
I also had the thought that storing mana means you are being inefficient. While Kruphex is trying to reward you for not playing cards, for holding back in the hopes of some big pay off. X-cost spells will benefit from this kind of play, but that means you are not solidifying the board, killing as many threats, and playing incredibly passively. Instead, if you are being active, you're probably tapping all but one land, saving up maybe 2-3 mana total over the course of a few turns. Nothing to write home about, even though we can all think of games where we lost to just one more land drop.
Could it be that Kruphix is in the "wrong" colors? If there is anything that Green has it's plenty of mana dorks and Blue is the color of control, and control loves getting as much mana as possible. So, thematically, Kruphix works fits. However, is it mechanically unneeded? With so many dorks and strats that involve getting heaps of mana and spending it all on a fat creature or game winning combo, there seems less need for mana storage.
All of this leads to a lot of dismissals like "Oh, it's a nod to EDH," but I find that a boring answer. Not every card is Standard playable, but standard shifts in between blocks as well as sets. What kind of tech could bring this card into more contention?
The sad thing is, he seems pretty controlish and control tends to not run green. Even splashing green specifically for Kruphix is hard, especially when it's not giving you too much in return. Most stuff that has green is either aggro or ramp, and although Kruphix provides ramp most people would prefer ramp into something that beats down, not ramp more. But who knows, when sphinx's rev cycles we might see a new colour combonation for control, especially if we get some good card draw or X spells in green and blue in m15 or next set.
May 13, 2014 12:10 a.m.
I don't think he is bad per say, I just think someone needs to find a way to utilize him. I always knew DD would go up in price eventually, he's a very black card if you know what I mean. If you wanna speculate buy a few and see what the next block holds.
May 13, 2014 12:44 a.m.
@Kale64 For the record, control can and has successfully run green in the recent past. As I recall, Bant control was actually pretty strong last rotation. You had the typical UW Ravnica control tools (Sphinx's Revelation , Supreme Verdict , etc.) with Angel of Serenity and Thragtusk as finishers. I really want Bant control to make a comeback, so I was pretty pumped when they revealed cards like Kruphix and Kiora which both work wonders in a control shell.
May 13, 2014 12:51 a.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #6
I feel like Kruphix is best suited for GU / Bant Monsters, with Polukranos, World Eater , Hydra Broodmaster , and Mistcutter Hydra providing some nice creature sinks, along with Cyclonic Rift and Sphinx's Revelation . Finally, Genesis Hydra from M15 would be another great cog in such a deck. And let's not forget that Prophet of Kruphix fits perfectly into a GUx ramp / creature strategy and makes Kruphix's ramp much faster.
May 13, 2014 1:56 a.m.
lol @ "green isn't control"
Clearly, you know very little about control decks.
May 13, 2014 2:20 a.m.
derKochXXL says... #8
I always imagine there is a blue control deck out there that splashes green for kruphix and finishes with mistcutter hydras, but I haven't seen that deck yet.
May 13, 2014 4:20 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #10
Why isn't Clan Defiance good with Kruphix, God of Horizons ? Kills up to 2 creatures and still dings an opponent...
Mistcutter Hydra
and other "x" cards are obviously what belong to her. The only problem is now that Banishing Light
is out along with Detention Sphere
and Deicide
you can't expect a "god" to stay on the field long enough to make that much of a difference If you don't get an immediate (up to two turns MAX) value out of them it's a waste.
I too have been trying to find a home for her and feel she best fits in a RUG shell, but unless you can keep her out long enough to use a Clan Defiance or Epic Experiment combo then she's not going to see much competitive play
May 13, 2014 11:09 a.m.
Clan Defiance is arguably much better than Fireball for the reason that the damage doesn't have be divided. Sure, you can't hit 2+ ground creatures, but you can pop it for 10 to nuke 2 things and a player. Try seeing how much mana that would take a Fireball to do.
May 13, 2014 11:11 a.m.
NixTheThird says... #13
harrydemon117 I think you may be right when going up against white decks, but gods will still see play since not every color has ready access to those types of effects (at such a low cmc anyway), sideboard at the very every least. But that's more of a side note of enchantments getting targeted down because there are simply so many of them in the set.
May 13, 2014 11:30 a.m.
and there i was guessing after gotation bug/bant control would become better...
May 13, 2014 4:14 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #15
There are still things like Unravel the Aether from green and bounce like Cyclonic Rift from blue. Those would both ruin your day just as easy. all that mana ramping you've been doing gets reset with any of the aforementioned cards so you will need to pack some counterspells to protect your "combo".
Besides, she can't protect you if your devotion isn't high enough anyway. I like her in EDH where games go longer and having access to "infinite" mana is awesome but not in Standard where everything needs to have an immediate impact
May 14, 2014 9:01 a.m.
Ultimaodin says... #16
As a simic play, I'm sad that Kruphix is considered bad. Prophet of Kruphix was also considered bad upon release and only now are people actually starting to come around to her power. (and oh have I been abusing this card for so long)
Lets stop for a moment and talk about Simic in general. First off Simic is a very heavy Synergy deck. In Theros block it is no different. Lets look at the cards Simic has:
Prophet of Kruphix - Loves having stuff you can flash in, aka loves drawing a tonne of cards and loves creatures, particularly big creatures.
Courser of Kruphix - Likes making certain you get your mana and helps you hit more creatures. (Also gives you life for the land ramping)
Horizon Chimera - Once more, loves drawing cards so you your card advantage gives you life advantage as well.
Fleetfeather Cockatrice - Likes mana to go monstrous. (not the best in constructed but what a bomb in limited)
Kruphix, God of Horizons - Lets you have all the cards for everything you draw and lets you store all your mana to cast all the big things you've drawn.
Kiora, the Crashing Wave - All about stalling, getting more cards and land (well what do you know) and putting down evvery increasing big fat things.
Kiora's Follower - Helping with mana to again, cast big things.
other noteable cards - version blue:
Bident of Thassa - Making your creatures draw cards. (if you have counters Bred for the Hunt is a great alternative).
Thassa's Emissary - It's a creature that draws cards... guys, you see where I'm going with this right.
Prognostic Sphinx - Likes cards for discarding if needed and helps you control your draws. (top deck a land to play with Courser and draw something good)
Dictate of Kruphix /Divination - Do I need to spell these out? (also, not a fan of font)
Archetype of Imagination - ontop of the high mana cost, he loves having lots of creatures, which you once more need cards and mana for. Also, if helicopter Hydras are something you want to envision he's probably the man for you.
other noteable cards - version Green:
Hydra Broodmaster - Loves mana A LOT. and produces lots of extra creatures.
Any other hydra - All Hydras like mana, simple.
Sylvan Caryatid - create more mana!
Reviving Melody - Helps having no max hand size and having mana to cast it and a creature with it.
This is looking just at cards from the Theros block. Don't get me started on how much I want to make a deck with Garruk's Horde , Courser of Kruphix and scry to just play my Library as my hand. Plus Prime Speaker Zegana pretty much sums the entire mana cards thing up.
May 15, 2014 7:42 a.m.
NixTheThird says... #17
Ultimaodin, you bring out a nice list of things that play nice with Kruphix in the same colors. However, these synergistic cards still have not brought a real strategy that Kruphix slides into to make a (standard) deck that is a real power in the community (no offense), just with the fans of the colors already.
The thought I keep coming back to is Kruphix is just slow in the current meta. But if the game does go long then Kruphix's mana could be game ending. If you built inside of a heavy control shell that included pecking at life totals and soaking up extra mana over time, then you feasibly could finish the game with some normally prohibitively expensive, but game ending spell. Everyone has talked about using x spells with direct damage or a massive Mistcutter Hydra (which I'm a fan of) on clear board. However, in order to increase the reliability of such a strategy, one should also include spells that say less "I win right now if I have all the mana," and more "You're at full life, I have a hand full of answers, and now you have only two turns to stop me. Go."
May 15, 2014 11:11 a.m.
Hydra Broodmaster ... how many X/X Hydra tokens did you say you want to create....?
As far as U/G/x control in Standard... right now, Bant Turbo Fog can work, but it's not the strongest of decks.
May 15, 2014 11:26 a.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #19
I think I'm going to sleeve up my Bant deck- Kruphix Does Work Son- at tomorrow's FNM or some other upcoming LGS tourny. I'm honestly thinking that a ramping, creature-heavy deck is way more suited for Kruphix than control.
May 15, 2014 5:49 p.m.
Ultimaodin says... #20
I forgot Eidolon of Blossoms :O
StuntmanTheThird - The thing is, everyone talks about it being too slow because 5 mana, but turn 5 really isn't that hard to hit and by then you should easily have the mana in this colour combo to cast him.
One main thing that has Kruphix not seeing much play is Green Blue is a very unusual colour combo in that focuses on synergy. Blue generally just likes to control while green generally just likes to play big things. A mage dabbling into the other is generally not all that adapt at the synergistic strategy. When you look at colour combinations, traditionally they fall under aggro (play low CMC creatures and beat face), Midrange (Play larger creatures that beat face and beat down more aggressive strategies) and Control (slowing down or stopping big threats to let the game go long and play a single finisher that wins the game by itself). Then we have Combo and Synergy. Combo plays a card, followed by another card, followed by another to effectively win the game via simple, well combo-ing off. Synergy on the other hand plays one card, then another to support the other card and another to support both those cards, but doesn't just immediately win (or in the case of U/G flash you hold up mana for both counter spells and creatures during your opponents turn). The fact is synergy strategies aren't that popular because they're harder to execute efficiently and harder to pilot.
I'd say U/G flash would actually like Kruphix but with Voice of Resurgence making a return, well U/G doesn't like it. As the Simic player my longest first place match was against a Green White Aggro. Voice is just a pain to deal with for Green Blue if you don't have a counter spell.
May 15, 2014 8:16 p.m.
masterosok says... #21
I've seen someone running it with Worst Fears and Dictate of Karametra in standard. Not sure if it's that efficient but if you drawn a couple Worst Fears it's a fun combo if nothing else.
May 16, 2014 3:29 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #23
I just had a pretty hilarious Kruphix moment tonight-
So I'm playing my Bant deck against my friend's Golgari Control deck, and things aren't looking good. All I have are some mana dorks and Kruphix with no cards in hand, but luckily all he had was Vraska the Unseen and a Courser of Kruphix and Reaper of the Wilds with a couple Brain Maggot . After a few turns of topdecking lands while chumping the Reaper to stay alive, I had built up 33 floating mana on Kruphix and finally Scry'ed Sphinx's Revelation off the top the turn before Vraska's ult. He made the Assasin tokens and passed the turn.
I Sphinxed for 25, found a Cyclonic Rift , dropped a Prophet of Kruphix , and thwarted his Hero's Downfall with a Simic Charm .
The takeaway from this ridiculous experience is that, yes, Kruphix can be slow, but in the right deck, he can make any late topdeck bonkers. Had I drawn Polukranos, World Eater or Hydra Broodmaster , it would have been just as nutty.
May 19, 2014 12:38 a.m.
canterlotguardian says... #24
I won FNM at my LGS last week with Kruphix and Biomass Mutation . Had a bunch of one-drop Evolve creatures that I put into play, then next turn Mutation-ed for about 60 and won handily.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #2
Fireball in M15. Clan Defiance just doesn't quite do the trick. Mind Spring or something similar wouldn't hurt either, as I believe Kruphix would go best in a RUG shell, which doesn't have access to Sphinx's Revelation .
May 12, 2014 11:52 p.m.