Strategy vs. Control
Standard forum
Posted on Jan. 25, 2014, 12:19 a.m. by abenz419
Ok so lately at FNM all of my loses are coming against various control decks. I play a lot of midrange decks mostly, B/G as of late. What I'm wondering is, what are some good strategies that I can employ when I get in those matchups?
Typically they're just long grinding games for me that either end up with me coming just short of finishing them off before their win con takes over, or our round ends in a draw because we don't finish do to the long grinding games. Any ideas??
@Kayoslord Aside from the random games where I just get mana screwed/flooded the only time I lose lately is when I face control decks, all versions. Depending on who shows up and how many total show up, there is usually at least 1 control deck at my FNM and that number can get as high as 4 or 5. There is Esper, Azorious, American, and even a R/B/W deck that all make appearances and lately I've been running into them a lot. Here's the deck that I played at FNM this week....
where the wild things are Playtest
Standard
SCORE: 0 | 0 COMMENTS | 6 VIEWSJanuary 25, 2014 1:35 a.m.
ok that works, originally I was just looking for a general game plan that midrange decks might try to follow when in this matchup, but if using my specific deck makes things easier then that makes sense.
January 25, 2014 1:42 a.m.
Well part of the reason you're having problems is the deck itself. The mainboard has a lot of dead cards against control. Your deck basically gets reduced to Arbor Colossus , Boon Satyr , Dreg Mangler , Polukranos, World Eater , Reaper of the Wilds , Sylvan Caryatid , Witchstalker and maybe you get to interact a little with Golgari Charm , Abrupt Decay , Hero's Downfall . It also hurts that none of these are particularly good against control either. Even a card like Witchstalker , which seems great, really isn't. A 3/3 for 3 isn't all that much pressure all things considered. Your sideboard isn't helping that matter much either, it's mostly alternative removal.
Often a midrange deck leans on cards that interact with the control match-up in ways besides just creatures. Cards like Underworld Connections and planeswalkers let you get multiple cards worth of value and grind the opponent out of answers. Cards like Duress and Thoughtseize let you take away their tools and play whatever threat is most awkward for what they have left.
I would try and balance out what you can between the mainboard and sideboard. For instance, you don't need a full 20 removal spells in the 75. You're probably running into situations where you're just upgrading your removal in a decent match-up rather than running cards to actually help your bad match-ups.
January 25, 2014 2:44 a.m.
@Slycne What kind of suggestions would you make then? I realize my sideboard isn't set up perfectly, but with the set up I have now, it gives me a good chance first game to avoid running into a bunch of removal that is dead, (e.g. Doom Blade against mono black). Then i can set myself up better the second and third games so that I have the most efficient removal package in that I can. This was actually the first week that I took this deck to FNM, the last few weeks I've been playing a deck similar to this one but more black oriented, so that's why I wasn't fully prepared. However it was the same results, long grindy games that led to eventual inevitability. In the control matchups I brought in the Mistcutter Hydra , Golgari Charm , and the Hero's Downfall . I would take out most of the removal I had to fit these in. The hydra's for obvious reasons, the charms to go with the main board ones for board wipe protection with the regenerate and to go with Abrupt Decay to deal with Detention Sphere . Then because I can't afford to let something like Elspheth get going for more than a turn i'd bring in the 4th downfall to make sure I can deal with the planeswalker immediately.
January 25, 2014 1:36 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #8
Elvish Mystic will do wonders for you in all match ups. Against control in particular it will allow you to get you aggressive 3 drops out earlier. Gets you ahead in terms of answers in their hand and the ones they need to draw.
January 25, 2014 1:59 p.m.
like I said this is the first week that I ran this deck, but what I've been running prior to this was very similar to this deck, and in that deck the original version had Elvish Mystic
along with the caryatids but they slowly were removed the more I played with that deck because they were affecting my draws mid to late game when I needed to draw some kind of an answer and would see a mystic, who's only use at that time was chump blocking. I left the caryatids though, because the only duals that B/G has are guildgates and shocklands, so the extra mana fixing is useful and they just make for a better blocker than the mystics as well.
January 25, 2014 2:21 p.m.
abenz419 Like I said, I would recommend cutting/streamlining some of your removal for Underworld Connections and Thoughtseize //Duress .
What specifically to cut will depend a lot on your meta.
- Abrupt Decay is too good all around to cut.
- Devour Flesh probably still want an out to Blood Baron of Vizkopa , but if you don't see a lot then it can go. You still have big green creatures to block.
- Hero's Downfall too good to cut.
- Putrefy decent but not exciting. Not having targeting restrictions is nice, but it hits less relevant things than Hero's Downfall . And 3 mana removal is often too slow.
- Ultimate Price good against most of the mono-color decks, other than their hybrid cards, but it's going to be awkward at times.
- Dark Betrayal is really nice to have against the black decks, but not really anything else and it's only going to upgrade since most of your removal will hit all of them.
I would recommend doing something like the following, and tune what's mainboard and sideboard.
Before:2x Abrupt Decay 4x Devour Flesh 4x Hero's Downfall 3x Putrefy 4x Ultimate Price 3x Dark Betrayal
After:4x Abrupt Decay 2x Devour Flesh 4x Hero's Downfall 4x Thoughtseize 4x Underworld Connections 2x Ultimate Price /Doom Blade /Dark Betrayal
At the end of the day you have to accept that you can't have better sideboard cards for every match-up. So you kind of need to pick your battles. Based on your deck and your issues, I think you're better off shoring up your game against control rather than having slightly more efficient removal for specific match-ups.
It's additionally worth nothing however that a lot of this will change in 2 weeks. Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow will be shaking up the removal suite.
January 25, 2014 9:04 p.m.
@Slycne I would like to point out that in most situations that Hero's Downfall and Putrefy are essentially the same card. Weapons like whips, spears and hammers are all fairly abundant, and Putrefy can remove them. That's one reason why I like the combination of removal that I have (i.e. Hero's Downfall , Putrefy , Abrupt Decay , and Golgari Charm ), it hits creatures, artifacts, planeswalkers, and enchantments. All in the mainboard, and in most cases none of it will ever be a completely dead draw. I know this deck needs some tweaking, as it's really clogged in the 3 drop slot. While I do like the way trample and deathtouch work together, along with deathtouch and polukranos' monstrous ability, but I think i'm gonna get away from the devotion aspect so that I can add Desecration Demon s back into the deck along with Underworld Connections again. Unfortunately that means i'll probably be dropping Boon Satyr and Nylea, God of the Hunt . The problem with that though is, like I said, my 3 drop slot is already clogged and I like the Witchstalker and Dreg Mangler s. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Witchstalker has hexproof which is really good, and it also means that black and blue decks are playing their instants on their turns and not mine which can slow them down not having the mana readily available they need, but it's got GG in it's casting cost which can make it tough to cast on turn 3 every time, especially if I have downfalls and uw connections with double B in their cost in the same slot. Dreg Mangler is nice because it has haste and can later on be scavenged to add +1/+1 counters onto a creature and not having a double color in it's casting cost makes it easier to play on a regular basis turn 3, but it does cost 5 to scavenge it and I already have big beastly creatures adding demons to the reapers, polukranos, and Arbor Colossus so with out the trample from nylea chump blocking a 5/5 hydra is the same as chump blocking an 8/8 hydra, and the mangler's are susceptible to removal and can easily be played and killed before doing any damage. Those are just some thought's I was having about the deck, I think going the devotion route just doesn't work with what i'm trying to do (black or green), because it feels like all of the best cards in both colors have double colored symbols in their cost. Do you have any other suggestions? I'm gonna do some work on trying to figure out this deck a little better and then create a deck list to make it easier to visualize, would you like a link to it so you can see the changes?
January 25, 2014 11:02 p.m.
Three-Left-Feet says... #12
Save your Fleecemane Lion until you have 7 mana... Idk, Obzedat, Ghost Council and Stormbreath Dragon are the only things that've helped me destroy control, and the funny thing is, they worked the best when I didn't attack...
Epochalyptik says... #2
The primary "strategy" against control decks is to just be faster than they are. Make more plays than they can handle, and earlier than they can handle them. Be careful about overextending, though.
If your deck is a play-per-turn beaters deck, you have a pretty decent chance of running half your cards into counterspells.
If the control matchup is especially bad, you might consider running "can't be countered," pro-blue creatures like Mistcutter Hydra and (if you're really in a rut) Skylasher .
January 25, 2014 1:06 a.m.