Strengths of grixis control?
Standard forum
Posted on Jan. 30, 2013, 1:15 p.m. by toxonic
Generally speaking, what are the strengths of grixis control decks in standard that separates them from other control decks (esper, bant and so on)? How do they overcome not having access to card:Sphinx's Revelation?
Also is it viable to setup a grixis deck with a couple of Duskmantle Seer 's in it seeing as how most of the spells cost 3 or less (Snapcaster Mage , Bonfire of the Damned , anything with an overload cost, Syncopate )? Could also run Liliana of the Veil to limit your opponents hand and eventually destroy their field.
When I think Grixis Control, I think board control. Using the cheap creature removal to keep the good creatures off of the board, your own creatures can run right through. Plus then it means that more burn spells can be directed at your opponent since there won't be as many big threats on the field. Murder , Ultimate Price , and Victim of Night are good for creature removal, Victim of Night only if your meta doesn't use many of the creature types listed. It will force you to run a bit more black because of the 2 black in the costs of most, but I think it'd work.
In addition, you could run Zombies for creatures, especially if you run chump blockers and Skaabs. Skaab Goliath is certainly a fun one to play.
January 30, 2013 1:53 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #4
The problem most people have with running Grixis is the mana base. Green is great for bant as it uses Farseek .
White is primarily your board wiper as in Supreme Verdict or Terminus , so now you're dependent on things like single removal (a.k.a Ultimate Price ) or things like Victim of Night . You CAN run "bounce" removal Unsummon to basically set them back a turn especially when they use a card like Rancor in Selesyna aggro.
Now that the Dimir shocklands have been reprinted, the mana base won't be as bad. You'll have to figure out some way of "2 for 1'ing" your opponent to gain card advantage and eventually take over the game. Things like Electrickery can be used vs tokens, and even spells like Rolling Temblor can be used vs ground aggro (mostly G/W but can be used in right circumstances vs B/R Zombies or RDW)
Staying with black even gives you things like Dead Weight to use turn 1-2 vs most aggro strategies as well (although usually will make you tap out for it)
January 30, 2013 4:36 p.m.
White does have strong board wipes but it's absolutely not true to think of it as having the only board wipes -
Mizzium Mortars , Bonfire of the Damned , Magmaquake , Mutilate , Killing Wave , Cyclonic Rift , Devastation Tide .
There are options for every colour.
January 30, 2013 5:26 p.m.
Sweet-Nightmare says... #6
If you run Duskmantle Seer , you need to be prepared to kill it if it's getting close to killing you. I use card:Rakdos's Return instead of card:Sphinx's Revelation, it goes better with aggro "control". (The closest mine comes to control is controlling what they can and can't play with Nightveil Specter , Paranoid Delusions , Appetite for Brains , card:Rakdos's Return, and Slaughter Games boarded in once I know their important set pieces. My logic is if their good stuff is in the graveyard, I'm safe to play my deck out to its full potential.) My view of Grixis is it's never going to be pure control; its control is meant to get their stuff out of the way so you can destroy. At least, that's how I feel.
January 30, 2013 5:35 p.m.
Discard is certainly a very powerful control factor. It eliminates options the opponent had before they've even been played. You can even turn it into a wincon with Shrieking Affliction . I used to play a successful discard deck that was very powerful.
January 30, 2013 5:38 p.m.
Sweet-Nightmare says... #8
Plus, with Grixis you have access to, in my opinion, the most underrated planeswalker, Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker . I have tons of fun just blowing up lands and stealing their creatures, his ultimate is nearly unnescessary, but a fantastic finishing blow.
January 30, 2013 5:44 p.m.
Takahashiryu says... #9
I was planning a Grixis control. By control we think about a lot of spells, you can use card:Rakdos's Return, Distress , Think Twice , Bump in the Night , Bonfire of the Damned , Dreadbore , Slaughter Games and Guttersnipe to make all these spells killing machines!
I really like the idea!
January 31, 2013 7:32 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #11
I agree that Grixis SHOULD be more of "destruction" instead of control. The part that everyone forgets is the fact that RDW aggro decks and Zombies can kill you before you get your deck "together".
Mizzium Mortars is SORCERY speed, AND has the unfortunate cost of having to have 6 mana and 3 of which is red in order to "board wipe"...most aggro decks can have you dead by then.
I agree that discard is a viable strategy with Grixis, and probably SHOULD be the way to go (especially with single removal to take out the creatures they drop early). Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is my 2nd favorite planeswalker (1st giving props to Gideon Jura ), and I would LOVE to build a strategy using him, but alas he is 8 mana which either ramp is required or a LOOOONNNNNGGGG grueling game would have to take place
I am trying my hardest to get it to work, but I need my playset of Watery Grave and a couple more Steam Vents to complete my mana base.
What do you guys think of running Barter in Blood and card:Curse of Death's Hold
January 31, 2013 9:07 a.m.
All the white sweeps are sorcery speed too, Terminus also costs 6cmc (although, does have stupidly low miracle cost).
January 31, 2013 9:18 a.m.
You can run Black Cat / Ravenous Rats as early drops that also cause discard. I enjoy Typhoid Rats as a one-drop due to deathtouch - they can be a nice control factor. Black can have a solid and controlling early game. Once you get to 3/4 cmc you're fairly solid with Murder and Mind Rot etc.
January 31, 2013 9:23 a.m.
Takahashiryu says... #14
I have a sketch of an idea that I just came up with.I don't have the cards and I haven't playtested it, it's just a thought about Grixis"
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/traitor-31-01-13-2/
January 31, 2013 11:15 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #15
Takahashiryu:
You can post a link to the deck by encasing the last section of the URL in brackets (i.e., [ [ traitor-31-01-13-2 ] ] without the spaces)
February 1, 2013 2:40 p.m.
Sweet-Nightmare says... #17
Curse of Death's Hold is a bit slow for me. As my Grixis already runs both six drop and an eight drop, the -1/-1 would be coming in a bit too late. But that's just basing it off mine and how it performed in standard. Barter in Blood feels sideboard to me, but a good card, especially if you're strategy is to stall until Nicol Bolas.
February 2, 2013 3:49 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #18
If you have enough shock lands that are swamps, then Mutilate is always good.
As far the board wipe sorcery speed comment I made earlier, I meant as if you only cast it for it's normal CMC, then it's sorcery speed removal to one creature...therefore hard to 2 for one..
Discard cards that are good in Standard right now are: Duress , Appetite for Brains , and card:Rakdos's Return. All others are not as good as they either don't give you the information you need, or can be a bad late game card
February 4, 2013 9:37 a.m.
Sweet-Nightmare says... #19
Night Terrors also isn't a half bad discard card. Any non land cards are susceptible.
February 4, 2013 4:03 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #20
Night Terrors can be a sideboard card when you suspect them to of holding onto something like a counterspell and you want them to use it on this or get something else instead.
The only problem I have with this is that you are having to usually "tap out" your mana early to cast this, and if you're playing against aggro that's bad as they will just hit you with what they have on the field.
Against Bant control etc, it might be better to side this in as games like that go a long way anyway, and it will compliment things like Duress very well.
February 5, 2013 9:09 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #21
I don't have the cards that I would like to complete this, but I splashed white for my Grixis deck. Check it out!
deck:4-color-bolas-05-02-13-1
February 5, 2013 9:46 a.m.
Dreadwhite509 says... #22
I know nothing of standard :( sorry. For all other grixis control ideas however, I instantly think Elemental Augury . It is an extremely* powerful, controlling and and ANNOYING. Enchantment.
February 5, 2013 1:42 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #23
I just updated it to be pure GRIXIS without splashing white here:
February 6, 2013 10:09 a.m.
anotherbomb says... #24
I've been dabbling in Grixis and was wondering what the strategy should be versus highly aggressive rdw/silverblade decks. I find that by the time I stabilize, without the needed life gain that I'm dangerously close to losing to a top decked haster/burn spell. Vampire nighthawks help but usually die a painful death to keep my butt alive and often that 2 life doesn't go as far as I'd like.
February 8, 2013 3:07 a.m.
well if you run nighthawks then card:Runechanter's Pike can be really good.
February 8, 2013 4:13 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #26
Tribute to Hunger can be a "2 for one" if used correctly. Make them sac a creature when it attacks so you don't lose life and actually offset another attack. Usually buys me a turn or 2
February 8, 2013 8:58 a.m.
anotherbomb says... #27
I just started dabbling in grixis control and was wondering what the best strategy is against aggro such as rakdos, naya and zombies. I feel without sphynx's or thragtusk that by the time I stabilize (which in grixis I find is getting their hand to zero) I'm dangerously close to losing to a topdecked burn or haster. Vampire nighthawk helps but usually only gains 2-4 life before dying a horrible death. I've found tribute to hunger can help but is lackluster if they sac their 1-2 drops with it. Any thoughts?
February 11, 2013 4:59 p.m.
Sweet-Nightmare says... #28
card:Curse of Death's Hold helps keep their board under control when you're becoming overwhelmed. Something as simple as Electrickery can obliterate their board as well, because most aggro uses lots of little dudes instead of a few big dudes.
February 11, 2013 5:11 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #29
@Anotherbomb:
I have been dabbling with using Barter in Blood so that will usually take care of 2 of their creatures and can be used before your life total gets too low.
Another possible sideboard/mainboard card would be Rolling Temblor as you can usually cast this turn 3 to take 2-3 aggro dudes down before you get too low in LP. I have been testing this as well as Flames of the Firebrand .
Let us not forget "ol' trusty" in Unsummon . It works well in bouncing their threats for a turn (VERY helpful against Hellrider decks, and can even set you up for a nice card:Rakdos's Return the following turn
February 13, 2013 9:11 a.m.
anotherbomb says... #30
So, I made a brew for a tournament tomorrow, I'll let you know how it goes. I played a bit and from what I can tell rapid hybridization is pretty beast for grixis. Its a 1cc response to hellrider/hellkite/obzedat etc...and the 3/3 is within keyrune blocking range. Sitting on that and negate means only 2 open mana and you have very little to worry about.
February 16, 2013 10:24 p.m.
BaceJeleren says... #31
Here's the main problem (for me) with discard: Loxodon Smiter
February 17, 2013 2:01 p.m.
Well what you can do is convince your opponent you have the ability to make them discard (Liliana of the Veil for example) and then almost everyone will hold onto the card. Thats at least 1 threat they essentially are not going to play for a few turns.
February 17, 2013 2:13 p.m.
anotherbomb says... #33
So the tournament was for a commanders arsenal and there wasn't as many players as I expected. I played grixis control and had a rather sad showing, but on the plus side I got to test it out in a new meta and I put up a decent fight against most decks despite not having any snapcasters. Hers how it went:
Vs America control 1-1-1Vs Naya aggro 1-2Vs gruul aggro 1-2 (probably could have won this one but kept a poor hand game 1 cause I was a little hungover)Vs 4c control 2-1
I don't have a deck list on here yet or I'd post it for you to see but I made some notes:
Rakdos's return is insane for grixis. Making your opponent drop their hand is key. I almost always kept a hand with one, it puts its in the position to start controlling comfortably.
Olivia voldaren is one of our best finishers. If she sticks then the game ends petty quickly,especially against creature based decks. The annoying part is she is easily searing speared (which was everywhere), and thus you gotta wait until you have 2 extra mana to get her a counter asap. Perhaps her best feature was her ability to single handedly solve the thragtusk problem without 2 for 1 ing your removal. Especially if you scoop it and sac it with lilly to get the token.
Liliana of the veil takes over and comes down early. If she shown up before/after a rakdos's return return it will usually put the opponent in the position where if they hold their card they discard it and if they play a creature they sacrifice it.
Rapid hybridization was clutch and a lot of people didn't see it coming. The 3/3 is easily blocked by keyrunes, and it did fizzle a few rancors even on the draw. I did run into the problem where they had another rancor and stuck it on the 3/3 next turn so I'm considering boarding in unsummon for rancor heavy opponents. Rapid hybridization is way better against restoration angel and boros reckoner however, both of which had major showings.
Psychic Strike was my hard counter of choice due solely for the fact that is lacked UU in the mana cost. Perhaps not as effective as dissipate with snapcaster running around. The mill was just an added effect though it did make me a little giddy to counter a thragtusk and watch my opponent mill a sphynx's revelation and a negate.
I'm going to board 4 slaughter games as I've found it to be the best answer to sphynx's revelation, which is a must answer for grixis since we do all that work too empty their hand. Their inability to counter it makes me pretty happy as well.
Finally I used magmaquake as my sweeper and it did not disappoint. Instant speed sweepers are clutch and it was definitely enjoyable sweeping my opponents field along with their garruck during their turn. The not hitting flyers thing is the real drawback against resto angel and spirit tokens so I might try mutilate instead once I get 2 more watery graves.
February 18, 2013 2:43 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #34
card:Curse of Death's Hold can take care of spirit tokens.
February 19, 2013 8:17 a.m.
anotherbomb says... #35
Well I didn't personally run across any lingering souls but I know the first place junk deck was running them. card:Curse of Death's Hold seems like it'd be too slow, especially with most creatures in the format having >2 toughness but how'd it been working for you?
Cavern of Souls didn't pop up as much as I though it would. If this continues I might considering running more counters as of now I only run 4, 2 Negate and 2 Psychic Strike .
February 19, 2013 3:06 p.m.
anotherbomb says... #36
I also want to try Hypersonic Dragon as a finisher. He dodges most instant speed removal (ultimate price, searing spear, etc..), comes out swinging and makes dreadbore, sever the bloodline, and rakdos's return instant speed too boot!
February 19, 2013 5:55 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #37
card:Curse of Death's Hold is a situational card and DOES work great against a lot of aggro decks (this also helps you "secure" victory easier as well for the long run).
The following cards are taken care of by it: Falkenrath Aristocrat , Gravecrawler , Snapcaster Mage , Thalia, Guardian of Thraben , Lingering Souls tokens, Champion of the Parish , Stromkirk Noble , Arbor Elf , card:Avacyn's Pilgrim
If an opponent is running GW humans, or a deck that has ALL creatures of toughness greater than 1 you take it out. Normally I run one main and one SB
Hypersonic Dragon isn't bad, but Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius is only 1 more mana AND is better IMO
February 20, 2013 9:24 a.m.
But at the same time Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius is more color intensive, which could be problematic in some games.
February 20, 2013 9:31 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #39
I don't think it has to be. With all of the shock lands reprinted, (Watery Grave , Steam Vents , Blood Crypt ) it shouldn't be too hard to get to the proper mana.
I agree that it would be more consistent to run less color intensive mana, however he was looking for something to compliment Olivia Voldaren as a win con if I understood correctly, and Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius seemed to be a more "Grixis" style win con
February 20, 2013 9:57 a.m.
anotherbomb says... #40
I ended up cutting Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius due to the fact that he just wasn't as good as olivia at sealing up the game. I ran him when I was using Chromatic Lantern but I needed to replace them with the keyrune for added versatility. Without those he's more expensive to get out (especially if you need to leave the extra mana open to protect him, plus he dies to more removal except searing spear). His ability is also much harder to use at UR than Olivia's 1R and you only get CA if you target players where Olivia nets CA by hitting creatures which is what you're going to need them for. Olivia trumps thragtusk much better as well.
February 20, 2013 3:17 p.m.
anotherbomb says... #41
Not saying he's bad, but he just sort of pales in comparison to the vampire lady, but currently her, the keyrunes and a few vampire nighthawks are my only win con and she's the only one who reliably seals up the game.
February 20, 2013 3:20 p.m.
But what about niv-mizzet as a hand filler instead of a kill. I run 1x him because if i dont get to cast him i can manage, but when he does land i usually have the board under control and just wreck everything. Olivia is really good but the legendary rule can be very strong, and if you steal a creature and then have olivia die the next turn it can be very depressing. Every time i have cast niv-mizzet i have proceeded to generate a huge amount of card advantage, its almost like a grixis card:Sphinx's Revelation
February 20, 2013 4:01 p.m.
anotherbomb says... #43
True, but getting him to stick is tough especially to end up being UUUURRRR2: draw 3 cards (if you attack). He's somewhere between an expensive sorcery speed finisher with summoning sickness and a hand filler and I feel like other cards would better fit these slots respectively.
February 20, 2013 4:33 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #44
The thing you need to do BEFORE landing your win con is to take care of whatever answer they have in their hand. Duress is the best answer and you can do this ANYTIME before you cast your win con. That or could ol' card:Rakdos's Return
February 20, 2013 7:04 p.m.
Think Auger Spree might be good in grixis? Even though it costs 3 mana it kills Restoration Angel , Boros Reckoner , Thragtusk , Olivia Voldaren , Huntmaster of the Fells Flip , Hellrider , Predator Ooze (Ive seen this being played a little more heavily in my meta) and Falkenrath Aristocrat . Not to mention all the other things it kills in aggro decks and midrange, and can also help get some extra damage in with Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius or Olivia Voldaren .
February 26, 2013 7:47 a.m.
anotherbomb says... #46
Maybe, I feel like for 3 mana Murder kills all those creatures except the ooze and aristocrat. Murder also kills Thundermaw Hellkite Obzedat, Ghost Council and other similar fatty creatures. The pump is nice for versatility but as far as removal I suppose it's a meta call along with the difficulty of BB vs BR for your mana base.
February 26, 2013 4:38 p.m.
anotherbomb says... #47
I think grixis's biggest issue is fast aggro, not good considering how fast naya has become recently. As such turn 1 and 2 removal is key for survivability until we can get liliana/olivia online. I was wondering what people's opinion on Typhoid Rats is. They can shut down a t1Champion of the Parish or Experiment One even with a t2 bte/lightning mauler blowout. Combined with Tragic Slip or Dead Weight do you think grixis could have the legs to compete? I'm thinking of dropping the Vampire Nighthawk s as much add it pains me as they are a little slow/lackluster even with the life gain. Also the same with bolas, as novel as he is I could free up some space by dropping him and a few lands.
February 26, 2013 6:13 p.m.
I was wondering what people thought about the idea of 1-2x Consuming Aberration mainboard as a win condition and mid game blocker. I was thinking about exchanging my niv mizzet for him in my deck
March 7, 2013 12:08 a.m.
anotherbomb says... #49
Interesting idea, because of the heavy removal suite he'll get pretty big pretty fast. He kind of suffers from lack of evasion or protection but his ability would be pretty relevant in control matches
I don't know about mainboarding him though because I feel like he's going to butt heads with a lot of Boros Reckoners which is going to hurt quite a bit. I think using him with Essence Harvest would be an amusing surprise win condition however.
March 7, 2013 3:25 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #50
Anotherbomb:
That will depend on your local metagame. If you suspect a lot of aggro decks, then SB Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker and put something easier to cast main deck. He's great against control decks as he is a BOMB win con on his own (just make sure you empty their counters with Duress, Rakdos's Return, or Slaughter Games before you go to drop the big guy)
I don't think Boros Reckoner will fit into Grixis as he requires RRR to cast and that is hard to pull off without mana fixing. Yes you can live the dream of having 2 red lands and a Rakdos Keyrune out, but that will not always be the case. (as most Grixis decks have blue as the primary color and black as secondary for removal purposes)
ChiefBell says... #2
Control decks did exist before card:Sphinx's Revelation!
Blue can give you card draw through Curiosity and Last Thoughts it also has Cyclonic Rift which can clear the opponents side of the board and not yours. Black is about the only colour that has access to discard and comparatively cheap creature removal with things like Tragic Slip and Ultimate Price . Red gives you direct damage that is largely unblockable - Mizzium Mortars , Bonfire of the Damned .
Without white you lose Oblivion Ring , Arrest and card:Sphinx's Revelation, without green you lose access to those big, cheap creatures and things like Naturalize and Rancor .
You have to weigh up the pros and cons. I think the most control-y would be esper. By taking red instead of white you'll have more burn but less traditional control like the o-ring.
January 30, 2013 1:28 p.m.