Temur Viable in Standard? or waiting for post Rotation
Standard forum
Posted on April 15, 2015, 1:53 p.m. by GrizzlyNate
So i like the temur wedge alot and i like the cards but is it viable in standard or maybe will it be good post roation when decks slow down or cant decide what they want to be. Another problom is i dont think temur knows what it wants to be midrange or aggro both are verry strong, i even think temur can out midrange abzan in most cases. What do you guys think. O also new sarkhan does he have a place?
I have been looking at this myself. If Temur is to become viable, I think we need to take a look at what it can do. If we take a few of the cards like Shaman of Forgotten Ways, Rattleclaw Mystic, and other mana accelerators we have a start. Next, Sarkhan Unbroken is a great card for his first two abilities, but if you want to utilize his third you need to toss in a few dragons as well, but something you will be able to hardcast too. I suggest something like Stormbreath Dragon, Icefall Regent, and the first version of Atarka. I also like Savage Ventmaw as a way to cheat another dragon or big creature out for free during your second main once that attacks. The kicker you will need is Dragon Tempest to make sure all this goodness is going to really have a chance to hit the field and have at least a little impact.
This is the type of Temur build I would start with. I am tossing the idea around in my mind, seeing if I can make my three Sarkhans work, and I really want to make it a thing, make it viable.
April 15, 2015 2:16 p.m.
GrizzlyNate says... #4
Yeah definitely aggree with the idea of why am i playing blue. I think it is worth it and i think that temur wants to be played midrange as well with a top end of the new atarka and planeswlakers and i think new surrak will also ne good in the deck giving your upper end haste.
April 15, 2015 2:24 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #5
Cards (other than creatures) that could be in the deck as an option if you run lots of dragons to make the most out of Sarkhan Unbroken....
My opinion:
April 15, 2015 2:36 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 is really, really good at temur. Speak to him.
April 15, 2015 2:41 p.m.
You could always try a UR dragons list that splashing green for a couple cards such as the new sarkhan or knucks.
April 15, 2015 3:40 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #9
I've been playing Temur competitively at the FNM level and higher since the release of Fate Reforged. I have been very successful, especially lately. Temur's strengths are in the midrange game (and it is an admittedly aggressive midrange), and that's what I play. Temur aggro is also viable, but in my experience, if you want to go that route, simply using Red/Green is more consistent.
Temur doesn't have any glaringly bad matchups, if you're playing midrange. It is very strong against control, especially post-board. It is somewhat weak on the draw against aggro decks pre-board. This is also true of its Game 1 matchup against UW Heroic and Standard's Green Devotion variants. Post-board, though, these matchups can be turned on their heads, giving Temur midrange a very good chance of beating every popular deck in Standard.
Why is this the case? Well, Temur has access to several tools that expand its midrange capabilities well beyond those of its aggressive cousin, Red/Green aggro (with which it shares the majority of its win conditions). These are chiefly:
Savage Knuckleblade: His size and versatility can't be beat on the 3-drop slot, and he's relevant at every point of the game. He beats Siege Rhino on board and absolutely wrecks control decks in the late game. He's like an aggressive midrange cousin of AEtherling.
Stubborn Denial: Helps you keep tempo by countering removal spells and enemy win conditions, like planeswalkers, Jeskai Ascendancy, or UW's Aqueous Form. Countering a control deck's Dig Through Time usually means you win the game. It decides so many games that this card alone makes the Temur color scheme worth considering.
Temur Charm: Running more than two isn't super advisable, but the card is still an every-answer. It's usually a Mana Leak, especially if you're on the play. But it can be a removal spell for most anything in the format if you have a 4-power creature in play. Usually, your creature will survive the fight, too (Siege Rhino vs Savage Knuckleblade comes to mind here). Finally, it blows out the token decks when you're ahead by allowing your creatures through to close out games. The card is grossly underrated.
Everything else is pretty much your regular aggressive Red/Green aggro ramp shell. The addition of 
makes the deck far more resilient to removal and stabler in the long game. It also locks down control decks long enough to allow your creatures to get in for lethal. The sideboard allows you access to cards that crush aggro strategies without harming your own offensive potential, powerful life gain for the decks that want to race you, card advantage and more anti-control tech, enchantment removal, even more countermagic, or extra hard removal. The deck kind of has it all, as far as the format is concerned. It might not be the best at any one thing (in fact it isn't), but it is so strong at such a variety of play types that it can bring forth competitive answers to almost any matchup. I will mention, though, that the deck does demand a fairly high level of pilot skill. You have to know when to hold your mana up and when to play aggressively.
This is my competitive Temur midrange list. It is battle-tested in tournament settings and has posted numerous Top 8 finishes at FNM. I've played against good opponents utilizing all of the format's most popular decks, and have been able to consistently challenge and beat them all (given reasonable draws and good play decisions). These include:
Mono-Red Aggro
Green Devotion Variants
Control Variants (dragons and dragon-less)
Jeskai Tokens
Boros Tokens/Aggro
Red/Green Aggro
Abzan Midrange
Abzan Aggro
The deck is good, I promise. Just because the pros don't support it doesn't mean it isn't viable in competitive play. I have strenuously proven to myself and others that nothing could be further from the truth. I recommend Temur because most players are not accustomed to fighting it, and have difficulty Sideboarding for the matchup. You can attack your meta with surprise and you'll do rather well, especially of your meta is control-heavy.
Final Note
I tried using 2 Sarkhan Unbroken in my midrange deck, which is the type of deck I'd assumed he was designed for. Most often, he proved very weak against aggro, and he fought on the curve with Stormbreath Dragon, which wasn't ideal. Usually I'd cast him and immediately -2 him for a 4/4 flying dragon. Now, even if my opponent uses a Lightning Strike or a Hero's Downfall to kill him, I've created advantage. I have a 4/4 still, and my opponent had to use one of his/her cards to remove Sarkhan. Seems good, but when aggro is so popular, most opponents don't have to use a card to kill Sarkhan. Most of the time, they just kill him with the creatures they already have on board on their next turn, assuming you don't have enough blockers (and pre-board against the aggro and token decks, you usually don't). So I essentially cast a 4/4 vanilla flier for 5 mana. That isn't so good. I'd rather have a strictly better 4/4 that costs less and lets Stormbreath Dragon sit alone on the 5-curve. The answer here? Thunderbreak Regent. After placing him in Sarkhan's slot, my deck performed a great deal better. I'm not discounting the possibility that Sarkhan Unbroken is a strong card. I think he's great for a Temur control build that uses planeswalkers as win conditions (to say nothing of his viability post-rotation, which may be considerable). I don't think he fits the aggressive midrange game, as there are too many better card choices for the slot he'd occupy.
I hope my comment helps. :)
April 15, 2015 4:20 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #10
I'm flattered ChiefBell but I wouldn't say I'm really really good at anything MtG. I do regularly find success playing R/G beatdown decks though. I'm swamped at work so I can't offer much at this time.
Temur is in a weird spot right now. The aggro version is at the same power level as straight G/R but has far worse mana. It wants untapped lands so you end up an abundance of Painlands and Mana Confluence. Casting Knucks on curve requires at least 12 sources, that's pricey. Elvish Mystic struggles to provide maximum value in a three color aggro deck.
Temur Midrange lacks the ability to pivot between control and beatdown because of it's weak board control. Knowing that leads you to run a more powerful linear strategy that is always the beatdown and goes over the top. Well blue does not aid in going over the top and straight R/G does it more consistently. I've found the draw to blue is Stubborn Denial as a way to push your linear strategy through hate. Decks like this want to snowball their advantage into an unmanageable board state. Denial helps you stick a threat in the face of countermagic and removal at a very efficient rate. If used properly you should be able to stick two threats before the opponent can start to repair the boardstate. This constricts their mana and/or answers which allows you to actualize the advantage of your early mana acceleration. Denial also helps you keep problematic cards like Whip of Erebos and Outpost Siege off the board which in doing so does not allow the opponent to play effectively from behind or develop inevitability.
Sarkhan Unbroken is an awesome card but he doesn't fit either strategy. He is perfect for a midrange deck that plays the attrition game like Jund. Right now that deck is Abzan and it does it better than any other color combo. I've tried splashing him into Jund but it's mana base is already strained and it's hard to justify with all of the powerful on color 5 drops available.
Bah I spent to much time on this. Hope it was of some help.
April 15, 2015 4:58 p.m.
GrizzlyNate says... #11
Yeah thank you both for your time and in depth take on temur. Do you guys think midrange is the best deck type for it because thats what im leaning towards right now.what do you guys think of playing outpost siege in the deck as well? Good bad ehh?
April 15, 2015 5:41 p.m.
AngryBearTony says... #12
I think Temur really wants to be G/R with a blue splash. Look, Icefall Regent is . Practically everything else Temur could want is only . Generator Servant, Rattleclaw Mystic, and Shaman of Forgotten Ways are all viable mana fixers, and I've even go as far as to say the Shaman will be an unneeded luxury in most. Face it, by the time you can cast your Savage Ventmaw, you'll activate the Shaman's Biorhythm for the kill. If you're going to run Temur Dragons, don't bother with Roast; dragons don't give a fuck about ground walkers. The major problem I foresee for Temur dragons, though, is Stormbreath Dragon. Once that rotates out, is there really anything worth running in the 5 cmc slot? Thunderbreak Regent is not Stormy, but he could be a great mainstay. If you can stick that with Icefall Regent (which I am not convinced is going to be a good option here), then it could be gg.
(Side note, wrote this about 40 minutes ago but was sidetracked).
April 15, 2015 6:10 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #13
@ GrizzlyNate: I think Midrange is the most viable competitive build for Temur for the current Standard (as I mentioned in my earlier post). I like Outpost Siege as a sideboard play against control for extra tempo and insurance that you'll put threats down on curve. I myself use a single Keranos, God of Storms for that role, but Outpost Siege is very reasonable too.
April 15, 2015 6:18 p.m.
I already made the deck-- just need the stormbreaths and a final broken sarkhan
April 15, 2015 7:08 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #15
Since the cards and strategies have been discussed ad naseum, I'll just say this:
Temur has had sprinkled Top 8 finishes in major tournaments ever since Khans was released. It's by no means a dominant staple, but it's certainly "viable." Tier 1.5 in my estimation.
Spootyone says... #2
From my experience, dealing with Temur means constantly asking yourself "why as I playing blue?" The answer is usually "Well, Savage Knuckleblade is very good. And I don't mind access to counterspells, either."
The problem here is that Knucks makes people want to play aggro, but his mana cost and abilities require specific and plentiful mana. I think that Temur should be played midrange, but that does mean it loses Stormbreath Dragon -- a large driving force for the deck. Knucks, new Surrak, Thunderbreak, New Sarkhan and maybe Dragonlord Atarka/Whisperwood make for a strong set of creatures. And though Sylvan Caryatid will be gone, Rattleclaw Mystic fills the role perfectly.
Deathmist Raptor fills Courser's curve role well, but obviously doesn't fit the other roles nearly as well. Aggro decks can be very aggro -- even post-rotation. Thus, temur needs to have a way to fend off such decks. Abzan has access to Siege Rhino and better rmeoval, but does lose out by not have a fantastic turn 2 mana fixer/ramper.
Experiment! Try out different builds and see what you like of them. Play against an aggro deck or two and see if there are cards post-rotation that can help you overcome them.
April 15, 2015 2:07 p.m.