The Death of Esper Dragons / Magic Origins
Standard forum
Posted on July 2, 2015, 11:13 p.m. by EssTea
THE DEATH OF ESPER DRAGONS
Alright so I've been an Esper Dragons player since before it was cool (since Soorani), and righ now I'm pretty confident in saying that Esper Dragons is not strong enough to compete anymore. Abzan Megamorph can go toe to toe with card advantage through Deathmist Raptor + Den Protector and now protects its creatures from Foul-Tongue Invocation with Satyr Wayfinder. G/R devotion can create incredible amounts of card disadvantage and pressure through Xenagos, the Reveler and Whisperwood Elemental and Elvish Mystic again blanks Foul-Tongue Invocation. Mardu Dragons have Crackling Doom which stops Ojutai from being slammed down turn 5 and obliges the esper player to wait very long before casting anyhthing to win, letting more time for the mardu player to overwhelm. Then there's Atarka Red, not much to say about that... Some other arguments : dragons are everywhere and Crux of Fate can be very awkward at time, the mana ain't really good, and Silumgar's Scorn is easy to disrupt through Thoughtseize. All in all, I think it is time to bury the archetype.... but create something stronger!
THE FUTURE OF CONTROL
So what do you guys think is the future of control for magic origins? For me if I was to build a control deck with what we have seen right now I would go back to the dual Pearl Lake Ancient deck from end of Khans, with 2 of the new wrath ''Languish'', 1-2 Perilous Vault, Anticipate, Jace's Ingenuity. What do you guys think?
gleeson.token says... #3
Maybe turn to look at an age old control archtype, and visit Grixis again. With Esper the problem was going dragons, but in Grixis, similar to some of the top modern decks, Tasigur has a place in standard, and keeping blue for counters and card draw, with some of the new spoilers from orgins, Red burn looks highly promising ad some black for board cleansing. Even Grixis discard with D-Lord Kolaghan and his command, splashing blue for counterspells. I think Grixis has a very real future in standard.
July 2, 2015 11:38 p.m.
Well not for origins at least, the mana would be atrocious. Also D-Lord Kolaghan has no inevitability whatsoever and dies to all the removal opponents will be stacking against a control deck.
July 2, 2015 11:46 p.m.
gleeson.token says... #5
I disagree, I would run more of a Blue/Red splash black, with origins having the new Jace, it could prove potentially great, or if you go black/red splash blue discard with Liliana it's amazing, not to mention I love the irony of using Ugin in a grixis deck. But it's all my opinion, and I guess would have to work with your local meta.
July 2, 2015 11:50 p.m.
So by only splashing black you wouldn't be playing Hero's Downfall, Bile Blight and Languish? I think that's a misuse of ressources available. I mean, Grixis could be an ok control deck, so does jeskai and u/w but everytime I finish brewing them I tell myself U/B or esper dragons is better. What does the red give you that black does not do better? Esper Dragons has one hell of a shitty mana base but Ojutai's crazy power compensates for that, I don't see Grixis compensating for its poor mana base.
Liliana does not fit into control since her -x returns creatures. Jace is kind of great but he's very suceptible to the removal opponent's are stacking against you. You seem to be talking more about a midrange build than control.
I do plan on finding a sideboard spot for jace though!
July 3, 2015 12:01 a.m.
gleeson.token says... #7
Well Thats it, it all depends on how you want to look at it. U/B is great, but with some of the new cards that have spell mastery R/B is the colors picked for it. Personally I like the idea of a prefect balance of all three colors,to sync into a well oiled machine. From the words of a friend, we play control not to be a douche, but because it's fun and more challenging, to know what cards to play and when. Its the what cards to play, and I belive it is highly possible to go either U/B/r or R/B/u, but then again I do honestly prefer to run aggro decks, and am only recently stepping into the control aspect of magic.
July 3, 2015 12:14 a.m.
The only things you seem to be complaining about is that Foul-Tongue Invocation is becoming a bad card, and that Crux of Fate can be awkward at times.
To fix the Foul-Tongue problem, play 4 Hero's Downfall. You're guaranteed to hit the creature you want to. Foul-Tongue is really only good in the mirror now, and after Origins, will be good against Abzan if cast after Languish to finish off their Siege Rhino or Tasigur, the Golden Fang.
Crux of Fate becoming awkward was an inevitability. More and more dragons became playable as the meta adapted to new sets, and now we'll be getting Languish, which can easily replace it in some numbers (or even all of them). You also mention Perilous Vault, which is also a great card right now, especially against Abzan Megamorph.
July 3, 2015 9:05 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #9
The deck's biggest problem is that Abzan adopted Deathmist and Den Protector which make it capable of grinding and not falling behind on card advantage in the match up. Perilous Vault is the way to respond to the meta in my opinon. U/B Adrian Sullivan style most likely.
July 3, 2015 9:29 a.m.
I think Esper Dragons is still fine. Edict spells are going to happen, that's why we run havens. Deathmist raptor can be a nuisances, but those decks tend to focus soaly on reoccurring them and its a very easy play to read. Languish will be an issue to watch out for, waiting two more turns to windmill slam Ojutia and leaving up a counter isn't so tough for control. In my experience, most midrange decks reduce removal to increase threats and draw effects when they side against control, use that to your advantage. They only have so many kill spells now, and we have 5+ dragons, Ugin, and those awesome havens for our own recursion. There will also be new cards in origins that I believe may help cover some of these weaknesses. It is my opinion that the Dragons are still strong, and most likely still playable after rotation.
July 4, 2015 7:15 p.m.
Jimmy_Chinchila says... #11
I think Sultai Control will take over as the control deck to beat
July 5, 2015 7:18 a.m.
Sultai Control would mean playing less good dragons in the main deck to ensure Silumgar's Scorn stays playable. There are both Silumgar's that are very good and playable, Icefall Regent is decent, but no others are really great.
Unless Sultai dropped the Dragon plan, and used a combination of Silumgar, the Drifting Death, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, and Torrent Elemental to wreck face, I don't see it being better than Esper.
July 5, 2015 10:08 a.m.
allthingsMTG says... #13
Someone should build a U/R control deck just for the shits and giggles.
July 26, 2015 7:46 p.m.
I've been rethinking my position on Esper Dragons. It's got answers to a lot of things G1 and after SB. There are updates that can be made to improve match ups, but it may be that piloting the deck is extremely hard. The counter suite is actually really good, and Foul-Tongue is the reason to Play esper if your meta is seeing red (like mine). Decks like Thopter control a la U/B or U/W have a serious problem dealing with burn, and while U/B control has some Life gain it's no where near what Esper Dragon can net with Foul-Tongue. The truth is, when sets new cards are released we want to test ut new toys, but are those stronger than the dragon package? I don't think so...and I've already tested the thopter control decks. They are good but a rough game vs Aggro. Esper Dragons is also one of the only decks that can remove Gaea's Revenge effectively.
July 29, 2015 10:34 a.m.
ChrisCortez.exe says... #15
Im trying to keep esper alive as best I can because I truely believe in this deck. I wasnt always an esper player, let alone control player at all. I like beasts and combat tricks but slowly I learned that I enjoy the flow of control and the thought process the deck type demands. Since I first saw the devistation of supreme verdict and sphinx's rev something clicked inside of me. I know that all the major tweeks to the deck will happen after BFZ and rotation of certain cards. All decks will feel this rotation, and once we no longer need certain cards or have access to others our focus on the changes that must be done will follow. Right now im not making any real tweeks because for now theyre futile, once thoughtseize, temples, bile blight, dissolve, hero's downfall, ashiok, Lily Vess, Vault, drown in sorrow, and a number of others are no longer accessable to us, we will really have no choice but to adapt. I think esper has a future for sure, but I need to see what will replace heros downfall and good ol dissolve before I can make my final judgement. Rotation and whatever BFZ brings to the table will really show how the deck wil change. Languish is gonna be the ballsier bile blight, and Im sure crux remain the standard. Im looking at cards not yet used in esper because there are simply better cards, most bieng cards that will rotate. Im looking at Narset planeswalker, I feel that there is a viability there in Narset but I need more info that can only be supplied by BFZ. Im very excited to see what happens with the new set. Also speking of Grixis, I have a funny feeling that grixis is gonna make a return as well but only because the flavor text on Fleshbag Marauder mentions Grixis and I feel like its something WOTC would do.
ABadMagicPlayer100 says... #2
I think that Demonic Pact might have a place in control decks. It's a very powerful value engine, especially if you can bounce it with the already fairly powerful Displacement Wave or even Rite of Undoing. Here's my list, with plans to possibly make some changes to drop white:
Demonic Control Playtest
Standard* ABadMagicPlayer100
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July 2, 2015 11:22 p.m.