The state of control in standard
Standard forum
Posted on May 1, 2014, 8:37 p.m. by phaze08
OK so to start I play grixis..... I really like it. I've only been playing 4 or 5 months but this color combo is the first one I found that I really liked and wanted to stick with. So I have a deck I've been working on and I think it's about to the point where it can't get any better really..... Except I could use some more scry lands but they're very expensive. So the point of this is...... The deck doesn't perform well. It's consistent and fast.... Cheap mana costs...... But I lose mostly. I don't like thinking about it because I really like all three colors and their interactions, but what types of control are best in current standard? I may test some other colors. What's their play style? What are they known for? What are they good at? Anything you have to add would be appreciated.
This is the reason I haven't jumped into esper. Alot of the key grixis stuff will still be around and theres alot of Good stuff coming for us in JOU
May 1, 2014 9:02 p.m.
The fact that Grixis lacks a win con as powerful as Elspeth and a true wipe hurts the archetype considerably. If we saw a Damnation reprint, the deck would go live pretty fast. It would still lack power in comparison to U/W/x but would at least be viable in some form, I guess.
May 1, 2014 9:11 p.m.
AEtherling ? Stormbreath Dragon ? Rakdos's Return ? These cards work well when I produce them, half the time I can't last that long against aggro though even with my huge suite of removal.
May 1, 2014 9:34 p.m.
The thing is AEtherling is a bit slow. Even u/w/x uses a max of one copy. They're more useful against mirrors. Stormbreath Dragon is cool, but so are Obzedat, Ghost Council and Blood Baron of Vizkopa . Sphinx's Revelation is also infinitely better than Rakdos's Return because of instant speed, not to mention guaranteed advantage and stabilization.
Trust me mate, I'd love for the archetype to be more viable. I'm a grixis player myself but I just can't realistically play it. The state of control and my primary colors have directed me towards playing Rakdos aggro instead.
May 1, 2014 9:43 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #7
I always encourage people to play what they like, so if your favorite shard is Grixis, go for it. However, here are the major drawbacks vs more traditional UWx:
-Lack of a boardwipe: Anger of the Gods and Drown in Sorrow don't quite measure up to Supreme Verdict
-No Sphinx's Revelation . I think this speaks for itself, but a similar important point is that there aren't any great life gain options, and draw power is mediocre outside of Jace, Architect of Thought .
-No Enchantment removal: per another recent thread, Ratchet Bomb and Cyclonic Rift are your only ways to combat Enchantments outside of counterspells and hand disruption, while UWx has Detention Sphere and will have Deicide and Banishing Light .
The pluses I see for Grixis are:
-Rakdos's Return is just awesome. I'm not sure why the poster above compared it to Sphinx because they are literally opposite cards besides the X in the mana cost.
-Dreadbore is an advantage in terms of cmc, though you could argue that Sorcery speed doesn't mesh well with counterspells.
-Counterflux is a great option against any other control deck.
In the end, I think a successful Grixis deck would need to be more midrange and utilize cards like Pack Rat , Stormbreath Dragon , and Desecration Demon , which a normal control deck wouldn't touch outside of maybe the Dragon.
May 1, 2014 10:14 p.m.
Yeah I run Stormbreath Dragon , I actually prefer him to AEtherling .... Hes just cooler and a faster clock. He dies easier though unless your against white.... Even then Celestial Flare will get him. I thought about Desecration Demon earlier today..... He's fast and all but doesn't seem too reliable. I don't really get the hype about that card. Any old token or aggro deck can take him out of the picture and he doesn't even dodge any removal.
I do think that Blood Baron of Vizkopa is pretty nice but I don't see how esper or another variant controls really..... They have board wipes but they lack spot removal. Aside from Detention Sphere
May 1, 2014 10:20 p.m.
If I wanted to switch to more midrange instead of control, how would I go about changing the deck for this purpose?
Just add more creatures? How is the mindset different?
May 1, 2014 10:41 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #10
In essence, yes you'd probably want a creature count somewhere in the teens. The difference in mindset would be that you know in the back of your mind that you have limited answers for the duration of the game and use them accordingly, unlike a control deck which simply looks to stabilize before effectively sealing the game through card advantage and life gain from Sphinx.
May 1, 2014 11:41 p.m.
Please let me know what you think.... Rough draft. Grixis Midrange Burn
Here is the original version:
May 2, 2014 12:39 a.m.
I think grixis got what it was looking for in Keranos, God of Storms (at least grixis control, maybe midrange). Where u/w/x had Sphinx's Revelation for card draw and lifegain, Keranos provides every draw with a sort of beneficial effect. Drawing land really helps control flush through its deck and hit land drops, and 'bolting something isn't bad either, considering the amount of x/3 creatures that see standard play. Heck, he can even bring a Desecration Demon down to a Lightning Strike range, and you won't be 2-for-1'd. He seems like a solid pick as a 2-of in any grixis list IMO.
May 2, 2014 1:34 a.m.
BLEATHThe thing is his effect is the only thing keeping him in range of relevant cards. Blue has very few permanents that provide considerable devotion that are worth playing. MBD runs quite a few trashy cards. Red's got a few goodies like Boros Reckoner but digging up 3 red mana can be a pain. Trying to make Keranos into a creature is a losing battle, especially in a tri-colored deck.
My friend runs America control and his playtests have proven Assemble the Legion to be a much stronger card in most cases. The decks that can answer it can typically answer Keranos as well. Not only that, with 26 lands and Rev, he felt like the conditional draw wasn't all that needed after he hit 5 mana to begin with. The burn was nice, but it wasn't enough to being anyone down to levels where it mattered. He takes 7 turns to clock someone and all that is assuming you aren't clearing creatures. America's just got better threats to play.
As for Grixis, yeah, he's pretty good. I'd probably drop 2 in a grixis deck myself.
BTW, I dropped your Steam Vents in the mail on Wednesday.
May 2, 2014 1:46 a.m.
I just really wanna see this dude work out, lol. Definitely my favorite god. As for his uses though, I'm running him in a superfriends shell and he almost never goes online, but I find that his abilities are extremely useful.
Your cards have also been shipped, lol.
May 2, 2014 2:25 a.m.
With Wizards toning down the format, he may very well end up being a staple post-rotation. As it stands, Ravnica is providing the current archetypes with plenty of power and overshadows Theros a bit. I like Keranos and his color combination as a whole. I can see myself playing him in the future. Still, he misses the competitively viable mark because of opportunity cost and the weak state of U/R.
May 2, 2014 2:49 a.m.
I really feel like Keranos, God of Storms will be good as well, especially until Master of Cruelties falls off. If the master gets a hit off, they're prolli dead in a turn or two.
May 2, 2014 9:16 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #17
I'm messing around with American Midrange and Keranos has been great. Vastly out performing Assemble the Legion . R/W/u Midrange seems far superior to a U/W/r Control build as well. He becomes a creature in about 25% of games I see him in, much higher than I expected.
I think he could fit into a Grixis Midrange deck just fine. He is definitely more at home in a midrange deck than control deck of any color combination.
May 2, 2014 12:55 p.m.
well i play grixis aswell love it :) and i seem to do fairly well. yes i use Anger of the Gods as a wipe but as posted above its indeed no verdict but in trade i get a cheaper cost kill aggro witch is the most important thing to me.
we dont have Sphinx's Revelation witch is the biggest lack i guess but Opportunity get me all the cards i want....still the lack of lifegain grixis has is a loss though.
Counterflux is awesome.
the master returns...again its the one i play
i do feel esper ctrl is stonger agaisnt most decks simply due to verdict and rev.
but Slaughter Games still makes me play grixis. laugh at you opponent being forced to exile all their AEtherling
May 2, 2014 1:29 p.m.
I too love grixis control, its just not working for me, not sure why. I've looked at dozens of other decks and got pointers from lots of people and I feel that my deck runs much smoother but alot of times, things just dont work out....I dont have the right color mana for restrictive spells or I don't pull my Devour Flesh vs that Fiendslayer Paladin , etc etc. I just want it to work well lol....I think when I get Master of Cruelties and a second Stormbreath Dragon things may run smoother but other than that I don't know what to add aside from Ratchet Bomb for enchantment removal.
May 2, 2014 2:45 p.m.
while its not enchantment removal the only one i ever see being played is Detention Sphere and now the new YOU one Banishing Light will see play so if you run not of creatures Mizzium Skin might be a thing. but besides Ratchet Bomb grixis has no actual removal just bounce stuff.
while i havnt played it myself might consider jund. you can run most of the stuff in your deck. and things like Vraska the Unseen Abrupt Decay and your enchantment removal Unravel the Aether (like anyone will ever see it again)
if you realy fear enchantments just Slaughter Games them all. can be done in jund aswell as grixis.
Arvail says... #2
Well, it's basically U/W/x or nothing for the most part, but these decks are expensive and most of their key components will rotate come next block. So yeah...
May 1, 2014 8:51 p.m.