Thunderbreak Regent or Ashcloud Phoenix?
Standard forum
Posted on April 9, 2015, 9:45 p.m. by ChrisHansonBiomancin
Outside of dedicated Dragons decks, which of these two double-Red, resilient, flying 4-drops do you prefer?
Is it deck-dependent (such as using Ashcloud Phoenix since your G/R deck stands a good chance of having the mana to flip it), or a meta-call (i.e. you expect to see a lot of Exile removal so you choose Thunderbreak Regent)?
Discuss.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #3
Both! Playing them together is pretty much the bee's knees. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Thunderbreak seems to be solid in all matchups but it is typically not your best creature. You kind of get what you see with him.
Ashcloud has some match ups where it is lackluster but in other's it is the best creature in your deck. Ashcloud also wins the heads up against Thunderbreak and Stormbreath which I have found to be important. There's a lot of play to the phoenix and it's a very flexible card.
I fully expect my deck building to suffer this spring as I try to shoehorn 12 flyers into every deck I put together.
April 9, 2015 11:13 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #4
Haha well you could certainly do worse than starting a deck with playsets of these two and Stormbreath Dragon.
Anyways, since "both" and "Thunderbreak" have been taken, I guess I'll go devil's advocate with Ashcloud.
First off, in most cases, board presence (the 2/2) is more relevant than 3 damage. In some matchups, you won't care about doing damage to the opponent since you are the "control" deck; an extra blocker is much better. But even if you do want damage, having a 2/2 will get more unless the opponent answers it, often resulting in card advantage for you.
Regarding combat, Ashcloud does better than Thunderbreak against big creatures (4 or more power). It can win the battle with a lot of the format's top fliers as well instead of simply trading. Unless your opponent is playing Godsend, you're guaranteed your 2/2, while Thunderbreak's ability is irrelevant in combat.
Ashcloud also protects your board from most wrath effects as well as edicts (tgt player sacs a creature), while Thunderbreak's trigger is worthless in these instances.
Finally, it's nearly unkillable in the late stage if your opponent doesn't have a way to exile it, so it helps give your deck the inevitability edge.
April 10, 2015 12:41 a.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #5
4 of Thunderbreak Regent. 6 damage with two on the field.
April 10, 2015 3:03 a.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #6
This debate relies strictly based on your deck. But I also do not see a problem running both. Some number of each seems like a sweet deal. If you run 4 of Stormbreath Dragon, Thunderbreak Regent Is Necessary. If you don't and you primarily are low to the ground, Phoenix and Regent are great top end options. Regent maybe as a 3 of and Phoenix maybe as a 2 of. Also, Outpost Siege is a must in a red deck
April 10, 2015 10:44 a.m.
If you have to pick between the two I would run 4 Thunderbreak Regent. But running both is not a bad idea, Thunderbreak Regent is just a stronger card in my opinion.
April 10, 2015 1:08 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #9
Running some combination of both seems solid. There's something to be said for having pseudo-mana sinks in a Red deck (or any non-super-aggro deck for that matter), so having a couple Ashclouds at minimum feels like the right way to go about it.
April 10, 2015 4:17 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #10
I would have to recommend the dragon over the bird. The recursion is nice for the phoenix, but I would argue that you're probably not going to be flipping it up again. And even if you do your opponent isn't going to have much trouble dealing with a 2/2 morph. With a solid body and an ability that triggers multiple times if you have more than one in play, I would strongly suggest taking the dragon, there's simply more value for less risk.
April 10, 2015 5:19 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #11
As someone who has played Ashcloud Phoenix a decent amount I can tell you flipping him back up happens all the time. He can be extremely hard to kill and creates card advantage. When an opponent is trying to generate tempo by attacking and clearing the way with removal Ashcloud is by far the better play on turn 3-4.
If you are evaluating in a vacuum then Ashcloud is the superior card. Thunderbreak has a lot more synergy going for it in Standard. There are interactions and boardstates where one is better than the other but an overall claim in either direction is false.
April 10, 2015 6:10 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #12
As someone who has also played Ashcloud, I generally back Rasta's assessment, especially concerning the fact that flipping it happens quite often, and just having the mana to do it can be extremely relevant.
However, I would also point out that there's plenty of ways to synergize with Ashcloud as well since it works nicely with Manifest for a cheap, surprising flip. Also, it's great with sac outlets for value and protection from targeted Exiling. I ran Ashcloud in a Rakdos Aristocrats build alongside Qarsi High Priest and Sultai Emissary, and GAMES (plural several times over) were won by Manifesting one into play on the opponent's end step. And yes, that totally felt like cheating.
Jay says... #2
I prefer Thunderbreak Regent personally, though I haven't played either. The fact that neither has haste makes the extra toughness very appealing, because it can still block the turn you play it. Both still die to Stoke, but at least Thunderbreak punishes it. I feel like more often than not, Ashcloud will be a 4-mana 4/1 that dies and gives you a 2/2. 6 mana is a big investment, especially to pay more than once. You're essentially dedicating a whole turn at a time to get the "re-cast" of him. I'd rather let my dragon die, burning them in the process, and keep progressing the board state.
Again, I haven't played either, but Thunderbreak seems much better to me on paper.
April 9, 2015 10:06 p.m.