What Is Meta Right Now?
Standard forum
Posted on April 20, 2015, 11:36 a.m. by SirFowler
What are your thoughts on the meta game in standard today? Where do you think it's headed? And what unlikely cards are able to overpower your opponents? I want to here your thoughts on these, discuss, and explain why you think so.
I certainly agree that Den Protector is the boss. Eternal Witness has been a great card for a long time, but how about a multiple use Eternal Witness that can also wreck face? I've played against Den Protector and it is a pain. The only way to stop it is to play cards like Rest in Peace.
April 20, 2015 11:49 a.m.
Well, I don't know about you (but apparently I know about ZooGambler here) but I don't have a SINGLE control player in MY meta as of now. Not a single one. I see waaaay too much midrange on the other hand though, and I have also seen some heavy aggro as well as U/Devotion and tokens.
I don't think you can make predictions on the meta as of now, due to everyone's meta being different, but in all fairness, I think midrange and aggro have a solid foothold on the meta right now.
It's an endless cycle though. There are decks that can destroy mid-range, such as control, but then there are decks that can destroy control, like aggro, and midrange beats aggro. It's a neat little triangle that weighs heavily on the cards in Standard as of now.
I like aggro a lot myself, but I'm getting more into the Johnny side of things and going with decks that see little to no play pretty much everywhere else. It's a lot of fun. :3
April 20, 2015 11:49 a.m.
Me too. I currently have a B/R midrange reanimator deck and it is testing very well. I think I will be playing it for a long time.
April 20, 2015 11:56 a.m.
JohnnyBaggins says... #6
From what I could see at Game Day, the meta was very diverse. From what the Lists on MTG Top 8 tell, Esper Dragon Control is absolutely nuts. I watched a few matches when I was done at both game days and the UB Control list just broke faces. Abzan Aggro didn't even stand the slightest chance against Silumgar's Scorn and even though it isn't, Dragonlord's Perogative feels a lot like Sphinx's Revelation. I currently feel that the meta is moving towards a very Ravnica-Ish feeling (Quote Scott-Vargas: "There is no midrange") since I do absolutely not see any midrange deck right now ever beating Esper Dragons. They just have all the things. I am agruing with myself about getting that Esper list, too. I'm absolutely in love with Jeskai Burn at the moment but that Esper list... man.
April 20, 2015 12:25 p.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #7
I am also on the Dragon Control hype train. It is just such an awesome list!
April 20, 2015 12:52 p.m.
Would you mind post me a link to the Dragon Control on my wall? I kind of want to see it.
April 20, 2015 12:55 p.m.
While I think that U/B/x is definitely a strong deck, and probably one of the best decks, it can't be ignored that it's only about 10% of the meta right now. Some local shops have an influx of it, yes, but if you look at the SCG Opens and the Pro Tour, while big, it definitely isn't that popular of a deck.
Mono-Red aggro is actually very, very good right now. Like, insanely good. It can consistently kill on turn four.
Aside from that, all the usual suspects are still popular. But yes, if you hit your card draw spells at a normal pace, and are a decent player, UB/X Dragon Control is definitely a superb deck. Very, very strong.
April 20, 2015 12:56 p.m.
I admit that monored aggro is good, but it doesn't seem as good as it used to be due to the loss of some of the best devotion cards. Boros Reckoner, Ash Zealot, and Chandra's Phoenix were so good because they added so much devotion to cards like Fanatic of Mogis for so little cost. However, with additions like Monastery Swiftspear and Thunderbreak Regent, it does seem to be growing rapidly.
April 20, 2015 1:02 p.m.
Mono-Red aggro won the Pro Tour a week ago. And that is saying quite a lot about the deck. And i'm not talking about mono-red devotion, i'm talking about mono-red aggro.
April 20, 2015 1:30 p.m.
ZooGambler says... #13
The thing is, the pro tour is a combination of draft and standard, and in the stamdard portion only the best preforming decks were Abzan (mostly aggro) and UB control variants.
April 20, 2015 1:39 p.m.
PasorofMuppets says... #14
Have y'all seen GP Krakow's top 8? 6 dragon control lists.
April 20, 2015 1:48 p.m.
I hate these kinds of questions. None of us are running things on the pro circuit and each individual local meta is different. Most of the responses you get with this kind of question will be people describing what they've seen going on with the Pros in big events, which won't benefit you at your local shop. Conversely, unless they play in your local meta there's also no way for them assess or predict what will be going on there. So these threads just end up being a bunch of random information and discussion that doesn't actually benefit you. For example, people are saying mono red aggro is really strong right now because it just won the pro tour. What they don't tell you is that it folds to any deck that is even slightly prepared for it (something the pro tour meta wasn't) so when you show up at your local shop you see everyone is playing (hypothetically) U/B control, U/R tempo dragon, Abzan variants, and G/W devotion you find out your completely screwed. Not quite fast enough to outrace them because they have just enough answers in the mainboard and even more in the side, and no late game to make up for it. That's why this is really the kind of discussion you should be having with people at your local shop in between rounds or as your chatting during games because the answers they give you will carry the most weight.
April 20, 2015 2:10 p.m.
I just felt that this would give people ideas, whether or not it would do well at anything specific. This thread should be for the people who have trouble coming up with ideas and see what works against what so they could be ready for anything. It's not meant to hurt people, it's only meant to help.
April 20, 2015 2:17 p.m.
PasorofMuppets says... #17
That's not really true except for some extreme cases.
Most shops I have been to generally reflect the overall meta (using data from mtgo, SCGO Opens, and Pro Tours), and discussing the overall meta is useful if you are going to an Open, PPTQ, PTQ, or GP as well.
April 20, 2015 2:18 p.m.
Does anyone think Altar of the Brood will make an appearance in standard?
April 20, 2015 11:46 p.m.
Other than in weird janked up decks (which I absolutely love), probably not, which sucks, because it's an interesting card.
April 20, 2015 11:48 p.m.
ZooGambler says... #20
SirFowler Altar of the Brood is actually a win con in Jeskai Ascendancy Combo decks that is arguably a Tier 1.5-2 deck (Probably leaning toward 2).
April 21, 2015 2:47 a.m.
What are your thoughts on Life's Legacy? I feel it has great potential, but it never really found it's way in standard. Is it even worth playing?
April 21, 2015 6:06 a.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #22
If Life's Legacy was an instant, it would be $10+ and be in everybody's list. As a sorcery, it's just too slow. Especially with the card-draw that Green (and Red, and Black...) has gotten over the past couple sets, I can't see LL making any splash at this point.
April 21, 2015 7:38 a.m.
I agree with ZooGambler and Named_Tawyny's posts. Especially about if Life's Legacy were an instant.
One thing that needs to happen sooner, rather than later, is 
featuring Dragonlord Silumgar. Those colors are extremely strong for control.
Also is extremely strong if built with at least 8x 1 drop discard spells. Then you throw in 3x Kolaghan's Command. Which gets back your stuff that Esper Dragons made you discard.
Lastly Mardu (
) has more discard than anybody and has not only the new Foul-Tongue Invocation but also wonderful old Crackling Doom.
If you want to build the ultimate deck for beating B/W/U control the base will be something like:
2x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
3x Kolaghan's Command
Dig Through Time is just straight up better for Grixis control than for Esper.
Mardu dragons has Orator of Ojutai, fantastic against control. Any deck playing Thundeerbreak Regeant needs this guy T2. Also Haven of the Spirit Dragon.
I will call it now: If somebody makes a discard based X dragon deck, and both are in the top 8, then Esper dragons will lose. Esper control on the other hand, now that's a different story.
April 21, 2015 12:59 p.m.
why is Orator of Ojutai good against Thunderbreak Regent? Because it chump blocks it once and dies?
Your analysis of Grixis being better than Esper in the current standard is pretty suspect too.
''Dig Through Time is strait up better for grixis than esper.'' False. Generalized statement with no way of proving it.
April 21, 2015 1:13 p.m.
oic, you want them together, I was like, why would it be good against it.
April 21, 2015 1:15 p.m.
I am saying that Orator of Ojutai is a good card to play if you are already playing Thunderbreak Regent. The two go together like peas in a pod.
I'm also saying that Dig Through Time is better for Grixis because with so many 1-2 drop spells like Duress, Thoughtseize, Lightning Strike, Wild Slash that can be cast even if your opponent isn't doing anything your graveyard can fill up a lot easier than Esper Control.
What does Esper do turns 1-3 if the opponent doesn't do anything? They discard and Anticipate. That's it. Grixis has way more options. Grixis control is also low enough CMC that they can run Sign in Blood with any worries against anything but Mono or some variation thereof. If Grixis runs into something like a T2-3 butt fight deck they just don't cast the sign until T4 or T5.
Go look at all the cards Grixis control and Esper control have for turns 1-2. All those cards will also be played sometimes T3, especially once you figure it only costs 3 to Magma Jet and Thoughtseize, and this can be done playing a Temple of Deceit T2 and an island T3 to make sure when you go to T4 you'll be able to counter on the opponents turn thereafter.
Also if a statement is unprovable then it cannot qualify as a false statement.
Check out: http://definitions.uslegal.com/f/false-statement/
Before you try to randomly blow up some dude on a forum without making any constructive criticism.
Opinionated? Sure call it that if it makes you feel better. I suppose I should have explained more about the Orator since most people don't bother to read cards and take into account each instance of their usefulness. Card draw is always good against control. That's a generalized statement but that doesn't mean it's false.
I am sure most people would agree that the moment you have less threats in hand than your control playing opponent has answers to is the moment you lose.
I'm also going to say a few other things here:
Card draw is one of the most important things in MTG if your cards are sub-par compared to your opponents.
Being able to put out two sub-par things consistently versus their 1 good thing is a valid way of winning.
Control is a very strong archetype.
Splinter Twin is a very good card.
Tarmogoyf is a very good card.
Thoughtseize is a very useful card.
The people who top-8 at Pro Tours often try new decks.
The Sun appears yellow.
The Sky appears Blue.
Some of those are generalized, some are subjective, some are opinions. None of them are lies or false statements.
April 21, 2015 1:42 p.m.
Oh damn now I feel like an ass. Sorry I got so riled up. I've had a lot of people call me out on every little thing I do lately.
Do you know what it's like for people to tell you every day since Icefall Regent was released that I should be running it only to finally see none of the Esper Control decks in top 8 running it?
All of my annoyance caused by those people has turned into a sort of rage now that I feel my point is proven to them by the Pros. I've always said the card is decent, but not a powerhouse like they think.
April 21, 2015 1:47 p.m.
Icefall Regent is actually pretty good. You gotta have good reasoning to 'go against the grain' so to speak. Everyone is clamouring about icefall regent becaus it's actually good. 5cmc in a single color (blue) and it Dungeon Geists taps down a guy, while taxing an opponents mana by making them pay an extra 2 to target it like Frost Titan. The card is good and I really don't know why you would want to hate on it, other than you personally can't find room for it in your decks, which doesn't make it a bad card, just that you'd rather use every slot available in your deck to max out value, which is fair. Doesn't make icefall bad tho.
April 21, 2015 1:56 p.m.
kengiczar Uh so... Esper dragons is perfectly capable of running Thoughtseize / Duress for a turn one play. They have Anticipate/Negate/Silumgar's Scorn for turn two plays. and they have Dissolve/Hero's Downfall for turn three. And if their opponent wasn't doing anything for the first few turns, then they would not be discarding as they would have been playing lands.
Also, one of the Esper Dragons list that made top eight in the pro tour last week was running one Sign in Blood Mainboard, so that is not a purely "grixis control" card.
As for the second part of your argument... what? All Behgz was trying to say was that you can't just come out and say ''Dig Through Time is better for grixis than esper" without giving solid facts. You can say "it's my opinion that Dig Through Time is better because this, this and this". I've read what you claim makes Grixis have an easier time delving for Dig, and I don't think it's true. Duress and Thoughtseize are not Grixis exclusive, and with the fetchlands, Esper can very easily have turn four Dig Through Times
Kolaghan's Command isn't what you want to waste a spot in a control list with. The two damage is irrelevant vs all but red creature threats, you can already return dragons to your hand with the dragon land, destroying an artifact is almost worthless in this meta, and letting them discard a card of their choice is bad. Especially if they are playing one of the Sultai or Abzan reanimator lists. Then it's very, VERY bad.
April 21, 2015 1:57 p.m.
All that being said, I do think that Grixis is viable as a control deck. As you said, it is very good against the mono-red/atarka's red decks that are doing very well. However, red removal is also quite bad vs. abzan of any sort. And abzan is one of the most popular choices right now.
April 21, 2015 1:59 p.m.
ZooGambler says... #31
Orator is actually not too great versus control to be honest. You get an 0/4 defender gaining you 4 life and drawing a card that orator COULD have been. Against control you don't need to block really. Your life total doesn't matter almost 95% of the time. And you're just replacing the card you played (Orator). It would be a different story if orator did something beside draw a card but at that point why don't you just take out the orators and put in the card you wanted to draw with orator?
Absolute statements without evidence can/will be discarded. Especially on cards like Dig that is seeing play in very very competitive decks like Esper vs Grixis which has seen almost 0 play. Even if Grixis has a great match up versus Esper, can't say if it does or not, does it have a great match up against everything else? UBx Dragon Control has pretty decent match ups against everything and I can't say the same about Grixis. You also talk about using Wild Slash and Duress and Lightning Strike but again 95% of the time you would rather draw a hard removal spell, a counter spell, or Board wipe. Lightning Strike just doesn't hit enough, neither does slash. Duress and Thoughtseize can be cast if your opponent chooses to not do anything but Those are also sorcery speed that you can't use to respond to things your opponent is doing, which is a huge part of playing control.
Am I saying Grixis are Mardu are bad?? No, no, no course not. Mardu is sweet. Grixis is fun. But they're frankly just not as competitive as the other deck(s) you're comparing them to.
I'd love to see Temur and Mardu hit the top tables though!
April 21, 2015 2 p.m.
Same logic applies to saying Grixis > Esper in the current meta. It's a generalized statement and shouldn't be taken as fact.
April 21, 2015 2:01 p.m.
ZooGambler says... #33
Also, Icefall Regent seeing play makes me wondering why you can't just run Singing Bell Strike.
April 21, 2015 2:03 p.m.
ZooGambler - Because Singing Bell Strike isn't attached to a 4/3 flier.
April 21, 2015 2:07 p.m.
Encase in Ice only hits red or green creatures, but one would have to assume those are the types of creatures you'd want to be encasing anyways.
April 21, 2015 2:08 p.m.
I have a feeling that with all of the control going on now, Dragonlord Dromoka is definately going to see play. It prevents your opponents from countering your spells, letting them cast Dig Through Time on your turn, and makes them rely on there sorcery spells more than anything else.
April 21, 2015 2:30 p.m.
ZooGambler says... #37
JWiley129 But a 4/3 flier dies in combat to a lot of things. Plus the card is 5 mana. Idk. I just don't see it as being particularly strong for taking out 1 threat for that mana cost. Tapping out T5 is really risky. I think T7 is the earliest you can play it and at that point I'd rather run another dragonlord. (This is all based off the new Esper lists and nothing else)
April 21, 2015 2:39 p.m.
SirFowler She's actually very good. I really liked Reid Duke's U/W control list in the SCG Open last week, so I basically combined that with Dragon Control, splashing green for two Dromoka and a Den Protector in the main-board, and adding a few more counterspells to make up for the lack of kill spells. It's a bit more threat heavy than U/B/x dragon control as i'm running three elspeths alongside the four dragons, but elspeth is awesome at stabilizing and i'm very happy with it.
April 21, 2015 2:39 p.m.
@kyuuri117 Mind putting a post of the list on my wall?
April 21, 2015 2:41 p.m.
ZooGambler - It's true that in the Esper lists, Dragonlord Ojutai is strictly better. However, in the lists that are straight with no splash Icefall Regent does a fine job. It locks down Siege Rhino, Stormbreath Dragon, Thunderbreak Regent, Dragonlord Atarka, and the list goes on and on. While 4/3 is quite fragile, don't forget it has the Frost Titan ability to tax spells targeting it.
April 21, 2015 2:43 p.m.
Does anyone think Hooting Mandrills is better than Gurmag Angler, or is that just me. Sure it's less power, but it does have trample. I'm just not sure if it's worth risking the extra power and defense. Gurmag Angler can block Siege Rhino and Tasigur, the Golden Fang and survive, but it can't trample over with power up cards like Become Immense. What are your thoughts?
April 23, 2015 9:56 p.m.
How is Suspension Field not being used? there are so many great creatures it can exile for such a little cost.
ZooGambler says... #2
UBw Dragon Control. It just wins. Monored has trouble with it as well. Drown in Sorrow and Bile Blight is usually enough to put them well out of range of the Red deck.
The meta will consist of those attempting to beat UBw control, and those playing UBw control. So I think we'll see a lot of RDW, Abzan Aggro, and UBx Control for awhile until there's an archetype that just completely runs the control deck down.
Card advantage based on the grave are what's ahead (I think). I specced correctly on Den Protector and still think he has yet to shine. GW devotion is just too slow and I think Abzan aggro may adopt the Raptor Protector combo.
April 20, 2015 11:43 a.m.