Why aren't they used?
Standard forum
Posted on Jan. 11, 2014, 10:27 p.m. by OpenFire
Thread for cards that people think could be played in standard, but aren't. I'll start off with Lavinia of the Tenth . 5 drop only, useful evasion, locks down the board for a turn.
hungerwolf says... #3
5 is too expensive for standard with all the ramp and aggro. Detain locks the board for some things. If it detained everything, it may be useful. But as it is, it's too expensive for what it does.
January 11, 2014 10:48 p.m.
I disagree that 5 is too much for Standard, Blood-Baron and Stormbreath Dragons are played everywhere.. Though I'm not arguing that Lavinia is even close to those 2 in terms of power level.. But I could definitely see it as a finisher in like U/W tempo against other aggro or midrange decks
January 11, 2014 10:56 p.m.
You're trying to compare Lavinia and Blood Baron/Stormbreath?
Lavinia won't kill your opponent and is easy to remove.
Blood Baron of Vizkopa and Stormbreath Dragon don't die easily and can actually beat your opponent down. See also: Obzedat, Ghost Council .
Lavinia stalls, the others kill. Why stall when you can kill?
In a similar context, dealing 1 to your opponent > gaining 1 life.
Lavinia of the Tenth isn't a bad Magic card and I think she's underrated, but Standard just has more efficient cards at the 5-slot.
January 11, 2014 11:05 p.m.
same reason Consuming Aberration doesn't see play in "good decks". he has the potential to be horrifying and believe me i have made him horrifying in casual play, but he is lack luster upon entry in that he doesn't pose an immediate threat the way the aforementioned cards do.
January 11, 2014 11:14 p.m.
Another big reason why Consuming Aberration is lackluster is due to the basic design of the creature: It mills and damages at the same time.
What's the point in milling your opponent halfway if you're trying to kill them with damage? Conversely, what's the point of damaging your opponent if you play to mill him/her?
You'd just be wasting time and finite resources on whichever method doesn't kill your opponent.
January 11, 2014 11:16 p.m.
well in a dimir deck which has kill, or discard spells, and counters Consuming Aberration doesn't need to be catered to at all. he can enter as a 1/1 and then the next time you play a spell, he becomes 6/6.. then another spell.. 9/9.(or however many his trigger sends to the grave) he grows extremely fast. and it only takes a few Rogue's Passage to win with him. you don't need to use up card slots with but he is not an immediate threat. and he has zero protection so he's not competitive.
January 11, 2014 11:26 p.m.
I tried Lavinia in Esper control. I also played Inaction Injunction and Martial Law because I really like the Detain mechanic. However, it just not that effective. It can be powerful, but it really just delays them, and pretty much everytime you'd rather have Azorius Charm , Cyclonic Rift , or Doom Blade . Detain just isn't very strong.
I think Rescue from the Underworld can be broken. There was a reanimator deck a while ago, but I think it can do better. :D
January 11, 2014 11:42 p.m.
If we get a decent mana ramp back in standard, I think a bunch of cards are right on the edge of playable. Primeval Bounty , Angel of Serenity , Sire Of Insanity . They all saw successful play in the last season when Farseek and reanimating were still around.
Similarly on the more aggressive front Nighthowler and Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch feel like they are only a few cards shy of decent decks.
January 11, 2014 11:50 p.m.
Dalektable says... #12
Jimhawk I agree. I would love to see this ran in a Boros aggro build though it just isnt. I really like it because it's ability because it can help avoid a Supreme Verdict . It's just short of seeing play i believe.
January 12, 2014 12:41 a.m.
I remember seeing it in a competitive deck somewhere. Maybe the more controlly U/w devotion deck that was around for a week or 2?
January 12, 2014 2:20 a.m.
I know Josh Utter-Leyton played Legion's Initiative in his PTDGM deck.
January 12, 2014 4:01 a.m.
Jarrheadd0 says... #15
I think Underworld Cerberus is highly underrated. Rakdos is just really weak right now. If it gets some love in Born of the Gods, I could see it as a top end of a Rakdos aggro deck or somewhere in a Rakdos midrange.
It is nigh impossible to block, and if your opponent wipes the board, every creature goes back to your hand except the Cerberus himself.
January 12, 2014 6:24 a.m.
ShadowLand says... #16
I think Obzedat's Aid is way more powerful than Rescue from the Underworld , but that's just me.
My two cents goes to Council of the Absolute , it can really change matchups, especially against Esper Control and U/W control. Especially if you run Gods Willing or something of the like.
January 12, 2014 7 a.m.
Yeah, but Rescue is an instant, and provides both a sac outlet, and 2 ETBs. It seems like there must be someway that can break it.
January 12, 2014 7:44 a.m.
ShadowLand says... #18
I agree Bestach, I think we are just missing a couple cards to make it work, mostly a discard ability. Something that lets you dump cards into your graveyard. Maybe with Lotleth Troll and Nighthowler , discarding to double pump the troll, then use Xathrid Necromancer or something, sac the necromancer to target something big like a Giant Adephage or Lord of the Void , then get a zombie token and two creatures. Something like that might work. Its clunky though.
January 12, 2014 9:27 a.m.
My thoughts with Lavinia of the Tenth are that she has 4 power, evasion that is useful in standard, and she locks down the board. If you were on the play, she locks down all of your opponents' board. If you weren't, she stops everything except their t5 play. Against RDW, Lavinia really just shuts them down, as all cards they play are <5 CMC.
January 12, 2014 11:03 a.m.
megawurmple says... #20
I had fun at the THS prerelease with Rescue from the Underworld . I pulled two of them, three Gray Merchant of Asphodel and had Abhorrent Overlord as my prerelease promo. The ETB triggers were hilarious. At one point I had about 10-12 harpies in play at once. The best I did was with 2 Gary on the field and one in the yard alongside my Whip of Erebos (yeah, my black was decent). End of turn Rescue, sac a Gary. Beginning of my turn, both come back and see 8 devotion, I gain 16, they lose 16. I won that game. I feel that similar shenanigans could be possible in a slower, more control-y MBD build in Standard. Another great thing about it which a few people don't realise is that, not only can you rescue your dude from the underworld, you can rescue your other dude from a kill spell or, more importantly, a wrath. Coming back from a wrath with a Desecration Demon and a Gary ETB trigger is nothing to be scoffed at, especially given that your opponent now has no more creatures to sac to Dessie.
As for the main topic of the thread, I feel that Reverent Hunter is underrated. In a solid enough devotion build, I've seen those things hit the field as 9/9 or 10/10.
January 12, 2014 11:56 a.m.
hungerwolf says... #21
I've seen an easy turn 4 10/10 Reverent Hunter. It's just silly.
January 12, 2014 12:08 p.m.
You haven't lived until you've sacrificed an Ashen Rider to Rescue from the Underworld and returned two copies of Ashen Rider .
I did it one time.
It was awe-inspiring.
January 12, 2014 1:10 p.m.
Yeah, these are the things I think Rescue is capable of, but I think your right, its too clunky. I want a better engine for it. It could be awesome.
January 12, 2014 7:27 p.m.
I tried to use Rescue from the Underworld in Zandl's Junk Whip, but it was too clunky and my opponent weren't using board-wipes or removal as often as I thought they were.
Also, Rescue is awful in your opening hand.
January 12, 2014 7:29 p.m.
I know it has a lot of downsides. It just seems like it has a tonne of potential and I want to see a deck that breaks it.
January 13, 2014 2:51 a.m.
For the big creatures like Consuming Aberration and Reverent Hunter . Their size doesn't matter as much without having trample or haste. An Aberration with haste coming down the turn after a Mind Grind or Traumatize must be answered - though, without trample, an Elspeth token makes it irrelevant. And it's hard to mix a U/B creature into a deck that can easily give creatures haste and trample.
The Hunter has more options in a R/G deck to get haste or trample or both. A deck would essentially have to be built around such a plan, and I don't think many players want to do that.
January 13, 2014 11:28 a.m.
Re: Rescue from the Underworld , the main problem I've had with it was having to wait until my next turn to get the benefit. By the time I had the mana to cast it, there were plenty of targets in my graveyard. Pack Rat makes a good discard engine early game to set it up.
Sacking a Gary (Gray Merchant of Asphodel ) to Rescue another Gary with a Sanguine Bond in play and high devotion is bonkers, but it won't save you if your opponent kills you before your next upkeep.
January 13, 2014 11:33 a.m.
megawurmple says... #28
MagnusMTG That's why you cast it at the end of your opponent's turn. That way, you have mana open if you need to use a kill spell, and you don't need to wait for a whole turn for your creature to come back.
January 13, 2014 11:56 a.m.
Yes, I know, TitansFTW, that is the best time to play it, but it's sometimes too late for that. In a recent game I drew Rescue while having the perfect setup for it: Dark Prophecy and Sanguine Bond on the field. Abhorrent Overlord in the grave; Gray Merchant of Asphodel available to sack.
I waited until the right moment to cast the Rescue as I didn't want to commit my mana, nor lose my big creature yet in case I need to use a Hero's Downfall or get into combat.
That moment never came because on my opponent's turn he was able to attack with two beefy creatures that each had double-strike and trample. There was no way out.
If Rescue did its thing upon resolution or even if it happened at the end of my turn, then the effect of doing it before my opponent had a chance to attack would be (devotion=9) gain 9 life, my opponent loses 18 life and I get 9 Harpy tokens with which to block if my opponent somehow survived.
Eh, bad luck draw, I suppose.
I still like the card a lot and use it in my MBD deck.
January 13, 2014 1:15 p.m.
What I found I didn't like about Rescue is that the creatures can't move the following turn, even though the spell is done and gone.
Nemaros says... #2
I played Lavinia pre-rotation because she was pretty crazy with flicker effects like Cloudshift and Restoration Angel ..
Liliana's Reaver seems like it could be interesting.. Better than most of the intro pack rares at least
January 11, 2014 10:47 p.m.