"___ has locked his inventory in the trade"
TappedOut forum
Posted on June 13, 2015, 6:30 a.m. by sonnet666
Why is this still a thing?
This struck me as odd for the first time a few days ago: that bit of text for trade confirmation defaults to referring to the user as male. Why?
I'm pretty sure that there's no other text on this site that refer's to users by gender; it's not like the site knows whether we're male or female, as inputting that information isn't part of making an account here; and there's no way to input that information into our profiles, so we can't change it even if we wanted to. Seeing how Wizards is putting in so much effort into making Magic more inclusive, shouldn't we be trying to do the same?
tl;dr: Can that be changed to say "their inventory" ? It seems like it would be an easy fix.
Admin Edit:
This is a discussion about site features. It is not a discussion about social issues. Comments in this thread must pertain to the site. If you're interested in discussing gender/identity politics or anything else, find another site to fulfill that interest.
I know it's technically grammatically incorrect, but (at least in America) "their" has been subbed in for a singular pronoun so often that it's practically an excepted usage. If grammar was a huge issue for people I could get behind "his or her" as well. It is also kind of fitting seeing as that's how it's templated on cards.
June 13, 2015 6:48 a.m.
Actually that's not true. The singular form of they (their) has been in use since like the 1500s.
Language is descriptive not prescriptive which means we describe language based on how it's being used in a practical sense, not based on arbitrary rules. Essentially the rules come from what we do, not the other way around.
So there's two reasons why it's completely ok. 1) it has been completely ok for 500 years and 2) rules of language update according to use, we don't change our use based on rules.
June 13, 2015 7:25 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #5
I'd be behind this. Sure to most of us, it's arbitrary and without notice but to someone out there it could be very important.
Edit: i think thier is best. There are some who don't identify as either gender i think? I could be wrong. This is not my most knowledgeable subject so appologies if i get that wrong
June 13, 2015 7:29 a.m. Edited.
Also worth noting that in a very broad sense we should make all changes for inclusivity that we deem both reasonable, and appropriate.
Changing our use of language is reasonable because it's not difficult. It's appropriate because it's not going to make things more difficult for others and its not a wide and sweeping shift in policy.
A change may he unreasonable if it's just too hard to implement. An example might be making all the site font massive for those with poor sight. That would be unreasonable.
A change may be inappropriate if it doesn't do what it intends or if it represents such a huge shift that it couldn't be implemented in a real sense and is generally a bad idea. An example might be forcing all the users to provide fingerprint scans on login for security purposes. That would be inappropriate because it would make life really difficult for a variety of people, would have all kinds of flaws (you can fake fingerprints with jello imprinting), and would require the entire site to change.
Changing pronouns is neither unreasonable nor inappropriate.
And yes there are some people who don't really identify with either gender. Under 1% of the population though. Still, they exist.
June 13, 2015 7:35 a.m.
Chief: Ah. A descriptivist. I was warned of your kind. Joking aside, I actually wholeheartedly agree. I even wrote a paper on the importance of recognizing singular their. That being said, the vast majority of dictionaries would disagree with your assessment.
June 13, 2015 7:37 a.m.
I have a friend that asserts that they is not singular simply because one particular linguist who was compiling grammar rules in the 1800's didn't like how it sounded. Just one guy.
I still point it out every time he uses it just to annoy him though.
Also I agree with Chief. Thanks for writing out the whole "language is plastic" argument, I'm not up to devoting that much thought and effort to a post right now. Another neat example of that I got off of an 80 something substitute teacher one time: the word "snuck." Apparently in his time people would only say that if they were joking or didn't know better. The correct word was "sneaked."
June 13, 2015 8:07 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #9
Their and they singular? Meh, seems pretty illogical. He/She His/Hers or just don't try to fix what isn't broke.
June 13, 2015 9:35 a.m.
SpartanCEL says... #10
I really don't see a problem, 'he' implies anyone.
You can't appeal to the 1% first, you have to appeal to the majority first. However I think in this case it won't effect the majority of people negatively by adding 'his or her'
Would this need to be a community chat? Other people would probably comment and voice their opinion
June 13, 2015 9:37 a.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #11
Well okay, girls aren't one percent and we do exist in this community, contrary to popular belief.
Why not just use their? It covers everybody.
June 13, 2015 11:47 a.m. Edited.
Because people like being stubborn and ignoring that things are a problem.
Essentially guys, even if you DO think its pointless here's the further issue - what do you actually lose if this were to be changed? What's the risk of changing 'his' to 'his/her' or 'their'? Is tappedout going to stop functioning? Are you going to fly into a vicious rage because that one word changed?
What is the downside of this?
Or is everyone just being awkward for no reason?
June 13, 2015 11:55 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #13
From personal insight I'll tell you my gut reaction was "this is such a nitpicky nonissue. Why do people care?"
I thought about it some. Why do i care enough to ask why they care? The change in wording does nothing to me. It doesn't invalidate me. It does however, validate someone else. It's taken a long time to shake that stubbornness out of me. Mtg players of all walks deserve to feel welcome and honestly i think a lot of people would be surprised at how much the little things matter to some
That's just my expirence though
June 13, 2015 12:01 p.m.
FinchFalcon says... #14
I don't think changing "he" to reflect the existence of women and other non-males counts as pandering to the 1%. Nor do I think an issue so closely related to current social justice issues should be discussed in terms of how many people it helps- if it's not hurting anyone, and it is helping anyone, it's worth doing.
June 13, 2015 12:05 p.m.
I think the 1% that is being referred to was in the comment about the people don't identify with either gender. (I think, I could very well be wrong) Anyways, just change it to his/her if people really want a grammatically/socially correct fix.
June 13, 2015 12:18 p.m.
Yeah so there's a tiny, tiny minority who don't like either 'his' or 'her'
But again changing it to 'their' does absolutely no harm.
June 13, 2015 12:23 p.m.
Do I need to explain that addressing someone as 'whatever' is like, really offensive?
Or were you just being derogatory for laughs?
Ie. Do you legitimately not know, or do you know and you just decided to be nasty?
Because that behaviour is exactly the kind of thing that could lead people to leave or not engage with the site.
June 13, 2015 12:27 p.m. Edited.
I think this is "still a thing" because nobody has noticed/pointed it out yet. I don't think this is really an issue, but I also wouldn't care if it were changed.
June 13, 2015 2:13 p.m.
I'm completely shocked that such a simple case of lexical semantics is causing this many people to speak out. Does it matter so much that it has to be changed in the first place? If so, does it matter which pronoun is used in its place?
I know I originally pointed out that their is technically plural, but the use of it is accepted in every situation with the single exception of scholarly literature.
Does this actually bother anyone?
June 13, 2015 3:50 p.m.
FinchFalcon says... #21
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: this website lies at the intersection of two very male-dominated areas, Magic and internet web forums. It is important that the website itself not exacerbate the issue by isolating its non-male members. Language is a key barrier here, because it is the primary (read:only) form of communication between the site and its members. Changing the word "he" where it is inapplicable (or at least not universally applicable) goes a long way towards two hugely important points; first, that women and other non-male Magic players and site users do NOT feel excluded, or isolated, or marginalized, and second, that male users such as yourself recognize the existence of non-male users, and can act appropriatly throughout the website. If you think this isn't an issue, I point you towards the many decks with titles and descriptions talking about how "this deck RAPES it's opponents" or about the "sluts" and "whores" that the cards represent. The bottom line is that on a website with entirely language-based interaction, the language the site itself uses DOES matter in terms of attempting to provide awareness of its users needs for a basic level of respect and recognition.
June 13, 2015 4:11 p.m.
Does it matter so much that it has to be changed in the first place?
Yes because it potentially alienates 50% of the population. People that may be put off the website if they feel it's not accommodating.
If so, does it matter which pronoun is used in its place?
Their is the best because it literally leaves out no-one at all.
Does this actually bother anyone?
Well yeah, see above!
June 13, 2015 4:18 p.m.
I think intentions matter here. As OP pointed out, "I'm pretty sure that there's no other text on this site that refer's to users by gender". This seems like a simple mistake rather than the website trying to isolate it's non-male members.
Should anyone be put off by this? I don't think so.
Should it be changed? Sure. I don't think anyone would be bothered if it were changed.
June 13, 2015 4:22 p.m. Edited.
Intentions dont matter at all. Only how people react to things.
If you hurt someone and say 'I am sorry I didn't mean to hurt you' it doesn't actually change the situation. Do you see what I mean?
You intention changes whether I think youre a horrible person or not. But it doesn't stop me feeling bad regardless.
June 13, 2015 4:26 p.m.
I haven't actually seen deck descriptions and card comments like your are talking about. In my experience people on this site tend to stick to relatively polite language for the most part (by internet standards at least). It's one of the reasons I keep coming back here.
What you bring up by talking about deck descriptions and other user submitted content is the idea that this site should start policing what its users do and say. Whether or not that was your intention, I just want to say that that is NOT what I am advocating for here. I am simply saying the site itself should take every reasonable step toward making its users feel included.
Just wanted to address that before everyone jumped on it.
June 13, 2015 4:26 p.m.
@tclaw12: You're right, I do think this is a simple mistake. I brought it up this way because I thought it would be the best way to bring it to people's attention.
June 13, 2015 4:28 p.m.
FinchFalcon says... #27
I agree, it seems like an oversight. But that doesn't stop it from being a harmful one.
My point in talking about user submitted content was not to say that the site should police it, but rather to point out a harmful consequence of allowing gendered language to remain unchanged- it reinforces the concept that men are alone on this site, which they are not.
June 13, 2015 4:45 p.m.
@ChiefBell - How can you say intentions don't matter? People should realize that something as isolated as this likely wasn't done with the intent to harm/isolate anyone. I see no reason to be offended by a mistake like this.
@sonnet666 - I'm glad you did bring it up because I think this is an interesting and important topic. Yes, there is still a divide between men and women in Magic and I think the "he" should be changed, but I feel like this site has done a great job at including everyone and we shouldn't let this change that.
June 13, 2015 5:06 p.m.
tclaw12 - Because you have a right to be offended regardless of intention.
June 13, 2015 5:09 p.m.
@ChiefBell Sure you have a right to be offended but why would you?
June 13, 2015 5:14 p.m.
Because you feel left out / ignored / not appreciated regardless of whether it was an oversight or not. In fact being an oversight is almost just as bad for feelings of 'being appreciated'!
June 13, 2015 5:16 p.m.
Why would you feel left out / ignored / not appreciated by something like this? As far as I can tell, this is the only case of this on the entire site. I don't see this as a reason to fell upset or ignored, when this site is actively trying to be as inclusive as possible.
June 13, 2015 5:28 p.m.
Simply because as it stands it doesn't acknowledge your existence as a person if you're not a man that enters into a trade? Which for many people is demoralising. Referring to people as the wrong gender is really horrible.
I dont know why you think it's a valid argument to bring up 'the rest of the site'. This isn't about the rest of the site. That doesn't nullify the fact that in this case it's wrong. All the good that something has does not erase all the bad that something has. I mean what you're logically saying if you take it the end point is 'if 90% of something is ok then the last 10% can be shit because you know, they tried'. Just because something is mainly in good standing does not mean it should give up for that last little bit. If the site IS trying to be as inclusive as possible then it would change it! That is not an excuse to NOT do so. An oversight is an oversight. It doesn't make it ok because it's the only one.
Also instead of arguing that people wont or shouldnt feel negative feelings about this maybe you should just accept that there are many here, in this very thread, that do? You are covertly saying 'i do not think your feelings are valid', instead of just listening and accepting, you are challenging it for no apparent reason? Just because you don't understand something or think it doesnt apply to you, does not mean that it does not apply to others.
June 13, 2015 5:45 p.m.
Look, we clearly have differing opinions on intentions. To be clear, I absolutely think the "he" should be changed. You are correct in saying that I do not think your feelings are valid because I don't see how those feelings can be justified (again, this goes back to intentions). I do acknowledge that people are upset by this, and like I said, I would be more than happy if the "he" were changed. Obviously the site shouldn't "stop at 90%", but in my opinion, this is nothing to be upset about and shouldn't be viewed as exclusionary or harmful.
June 13, 2015 6:12 p.m.
FinchFalcon says... #35
But that's the point, tclaw12. It doesn't matter if you don't think our reactions are justified. Feelings are feelings, and I define mine, not you. You aren't the one living in a society that continually marginalizes you, and treats you as less than equal. Acting like you have a say in how valid our feelings are is a perfect example of privilege.
No one is saying Tappedout is a terrible place to be because of this oversight. But it has very real consequences, and it's insulting for you to dismiss the way other people react to it.
June 13, 2015 10:12 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #36
Two things :
- I don't like how this thread devolved from a good idea to a heated debate over semantics.
2.The privilege argument is just going to derail the thread. This is the internet. You can't assume to know what level of "privilege" people do or don't have.
June 13, 2015 10:26 p.m.
FinchFalcon - Again, we clearly have different opinions on the subject, and I apologize if my remarks were hurtful. I'll admit that some of my responses were probably a bit reckless and I'll take some credit for the devolution of the thread. I, like VampireArmy, would rather not discuss privilege, but I'm sorry if you do live in a society that mistreats you. That is a terrible thing to experience.
June 13, 2015 11:35 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #38
You know what's awesome? All of your arguments are moot. All yeaGO has to do is say yay or nay and do the change if it is a yay. The hard part is finding them all...
So let's find them!
June 13, 2015 11:41 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #39
Guess you guys aren't Mel Brooks fans...
If people's feelings get hurt it's not a big deal and they don't have to be accommodated. If that .002% feels marginalized by some meanigless words then fuck them. Regardless of how you try to spin it INTENT IS KEY. In this case there is no malice intended. Wussy boy/girl just need to mature and accept the real world and stop getting offended at nonsense.
You have the right to feel offended and we have the right to laugh at you while not giving a damn. Grow up and deal with it, it's called being an adult.
Who cares what Yeago does in this particular situation that's not important. What's important is enlightening all of these pussified fools and getting them to quit advocating for the regression of western society with their social justice bullshit. Down with Babylon.
FREEDOM > JUSTICE/EQUALITY
June 14, 2015 10:25 a.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #40
Excuse me? Did we just flash back to the 1880s?
June 14, 2015 10:28 a.m. Edited.
The arguments in favour appear to be:
it increases inclusivity.
it's not hard to do.
Against seems to be:
I don't care
We shouldn't make any effort to not offend people
I mean does anyone actually have anything useful to add?
June 14, 2015 10:37 a.m. Edited.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #43
I'm so sick of reading this ignorant garbage on this site. If social justice warriors are allowed to spew their puke then freedom defefenders should be able to shed some light. Just because my language is stronger doesn't mean your panties should get bunched. If it's that big of a deal and you guys want to silence pro freedom members then ban me. If not I'll happily keep calling Bell on his BS when relevant.
June 14, 2015 10:41 a.m.
You still haven't actually said anything at all convincing or reasonable.
The freedom to what exactly? Only refer to half the people in the world?
I mean sure, you still can if you want. I'm not stopping you; I'm just saying it's a bad idea.
Youre going to have to really go for it to persuade anyone that changing the word 'his' to 'theirs' impedes your freedom. But go on - entertain me.
June 14, 2015 10:43 a.m.
Also you should note that we've put forward like actual arguments and made points with real concerns. You've just kind of said 'I dont want it because I dont like it'.
June 14, 2015 10:44 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #46
Could you take it to his wall then, Rasta_Viking29 i have nothing against your opinion but i would like to get on topic.
June 14, 2015 10:46 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #47
ChiefBell the specific site issue is irrelevant. Change it to his/her or if we want to be inncorrect and silly they. I'm in favor of his/her obviously as I suggested it. It's all the arguments you made about inclusion and intent not mattering, your usual hogwash ya know, to support your reasons for changing it to they. It was laughable.
June 14, 2015 10:50 a.m.
Wait, wait, wait.
Youre in favour of this change. But you dont think inclusion matters. What's your stake in this then?
And no, it's not hogwash. You're just voicing the opinion of a bygone era.
June 14, 2015 10:52 a.m.
Two extracts proving that this is actually a problem:
erasure of female voices in language
male generic pronouns lead individuals to automatically assume that only males are being considered
Edit: just to prove that I'm not literally making shit up. You know, people have thought of this and tested this.
June 14, 2015 11:04 a.m. Edited.
SpartanCEL says... #50
Sooooo I think the popular options are
his
his/her
their
Or
- 'write in'
I think his/her
-Fulcrum says... #2
Their inventory is, by technicality, plural. There is no singular gender neutral pronoun, and "he" is actually the default, sexist as it is. If it's that big a deal, I imagine someone could change it to "his or her," kind of like the Magic cards. Path to Exile for example.
June 13, 2015 6:38 a.m.