Combo Detection
TappedOut forum
Posted on Dec. 20, 2013, 3:08 p.m. by yeaGO
Hey all,
You will now notice some additional features surrounding MTG combos.
1) Mentioning combos such as Channel + Fireball (that's bracket bracket channel plus fireball bracket bracket) will now aggregate discussion on the new combo pages
2) Mentioning combos and key synergies in your deck descriptions will provide YET ANOTHER place for your deck to cycle to. This uses the above syntax.
Enjoy.
thataddkid says... #2
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Tooth and Nail + Zealous Conscripts needs to be made into a combo. How do I link them to make them into a combo?
December 22, 2013 12:44 a.m.
atreyujames says... #3
Meh, Tooth and Nail itself is never usually a combo piece, just a tutor for the pieces. By that standards we would have to include many other tutors like Demonic Tutor , Mystical Tutor , and Green Sun's Zenith to combo's
December 22, 2013 2:18 a.m.
Does the detection check for 3 card combos? Or does it read as 1 + 2, and 2 + 3?
December 22, 2013 4:31 a.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #5
Is there some kind of filtering for combos in place? I mean, before we have a list full of Grizzly Bears + Forest and Lightning Bolt + Mox Ruby
December 22, 2013 6:23 p.m.
Where do we view combos? Furthermore, this is a little buggy or something still, because I edited and re-edited my deck description in:
Cast Oloro? Nah...
and it is only picking up 2 of my numerous combos, no matter how hard I try to list them all (it was also picking up a third I didn't consider a combo, so I edited it eliminating a space after the first card and it went away).
I also tried just listing a few as a comment, and still nothing. Please tell me what I am doing wrong, thanks.
December 23, 2013 1:07 a.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #8
It looks like maybe it's not adding new ones right now? It seems to have picked a lot of weird ones up, though, like: Fog + Lightning Bolt ? (Not that lacking Storm Crow + Force of Will is a big deal or anything.)
December 23, 2013 9:15 a.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #9
@ nbarry223 ...could it be that you have a megalomanic streak? ;P
On the pages of the cards it's made up of. I hope there will be a browse and search page someday.
Also, you can be glad if it registers even one or two ;D
After 3 days now, neither the combos and synergies mentioned in my Mikaeus, Zombie Quarterback deck nor the ones in my latest deck Flaming Ocean are being recognized by the combase... On the other hand, "combos" mentioned in 2 years old comments appear in the combase. I just have to keep telling myself that the server is probably working through the decks and comments from old to new and will catch up eventually. However, that's just my assumption, knowing for sure would be more comforting. But once the poblem is found, yeaGO! sure won't waste time explaining what's wrong and rather fix it, so I'll just try to be patient.
December 23, 2013 9:20 a.m.
well, it seems to me that one of the possible problems is that is dependent on blank spaces, which is usually a big no-no when programming such a feature.
It will pick up something like storm crow + island but not storm crow+ island or storm crow +island. The order you mention things might have an effect on it too, I haven't tried messing around with that yet either.
December 23, 2013 11:55 a.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #11
Where did some of these come from? Vizkopa Guildmage has a bunch of combos listed, but this one appears to come out of nowhere. Is it able to parse private comments, or was this entered manually?
December 23, 2013 2:41 p.m.
I have no idea how the system works but some of the 'combos' at the moment are just supid. Furthermore there are many real combos that are left out.
Vizkopa Guildmage + Whip of Erebos is synergy between lifelink and vizkopa's second ability.
December 23, 2013 3:31 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #13
The combo's alright, I get it, but there were no comments on that hub shown at all, before you mentioned it (so now you're the first!). I probably should have mentioned I linked it the "wrong" way specifically so that could be seen. I was asking because I was wondering how it got on the list there without any mentions of it in comments, rather than asking about the combo specifically.
Maybe it was mentioned privately somewhere and it was read from there? Or entered manually? Or it was read from some place that isn't being reported correctly in the hubs?
You can go and look at it, and see I was clearly referring to it before your comment was made, but that no earlier examples of it are shown at its hub.
December 23, 2013 4:28 p.m.
Well, I have an idea of how it got there. Someone mentioned it or something and the system detected it. Then they changed their comment (or deleted it) because they didn't want it shown as a combo. Very much like what happened with Stasis and Magosi, the Waterveil with me. It detected that as a combo but not some of my other real combos.
Another problem that looking at the Stasis page brings up is the same combo being listed twice. It's unnecessary, run everything through a loop alphabetizing it once it is detected, it (should) stop the problem (nothing is definite in programming though, I get some of the weirdest errors sometimes, so I understand this will probably be buggy for some time).
December 23, 2013 6:01 p.m.
Thanks a lot for the feedback everyone! I've updated the syntax so just stuff your combos in between a single set of brackets. This should also clear out some of the bugs you guys mention with regard to spaces and such.
Also, I've done away with the suggestions syntax. Now you can simply mention cards and check boxes to indicate whether they are suggestions on the resulting page.
December 23, 2013 6:28 p.m.
Thanks a bunch, it works perfectly now (I think anyway). This will also stop unwanted useless "combos" popping up as "combos" simply because someone worded it that way.
December 23, 2013 6:53 p.m.
Will there be a way to flag certain "combos" for deletion in the future? Because stupid things like Island + Forest shouldn't be listed as combos.
December 23, 2013 6:56 p.m.
My understanding is a combo page is added when someone uses the correct syntax, thus why I am asking if we can flag things for deletion in the future.
December 23, 2013 6:57 p.m.
And the converse of the above - how can we flag combos that should be added. I don't want to add combos to my deck until I'm sure they'll actually show up.
December 23, 2013 6:57 p.m.
smash10101 says... #23
I believe they will automatically show up. Epochalyptik currently has the power to blacklist combos that aren't. And he better not abuse that power, Island + Storm Crow ] is a legitimate combo.
yeaGO!: With the new bracket syntax, can we now make 4th+ order combos? Also, have you thought about a tag system and/or the / syntax for modular combos? And I think the single bracket thing isn't quite working. I keep getting the closing bracket showing up as text.
December 23, 2013 7:05 p.m.
single bracket thing?
4th order could be okay i guess. i'll add it.
going to think about the alternate syntaxes in the next few days.
also, sorry i didn't get back to you about that email, its been difficult for me to create new accounts at this time :P
December 23, 2013 7:09 p.m.
Can someone update us (me) on how to tag a 3 card combo. (between spaces, brackets, +s, etc)
December 23, 2013 7:09 p.m.
it's double brackets around the outside...
So for example, Channel + Fireball is done by putting [ [ channel + fireball ] ] without spaces between brackets.
December 23, 2013 7:10 p.m.
but what about Viscera Seer + Ashen Rider + Saffi Eriksdotter + Karmic Guide + Reveillark :(
December 23, 2013 7:12 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #28
I'm probably going to end up deleting all the "combos" that aren't actually combos. For example, Ethereal Armor + Invisible Stalker is not a combo.
December 23, 2013 7:14 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #29
Also, any "combo" that involves more than three cards is subject to question just on principle.
December 23, 2013 7:15 p.m.
You can split that up into multiple combos. You don't need all 5 for it to be a combo. That's more of a / thing than a + thing imo.
You can interchange quite a few cards in there for (still) devastating effects.
December 23, 2013 7:15 p.m.
So why doesn't [ [elite arcanist + triton tactics + zhur taa druid] ] work? (no spaces between brackets)
December 23, 2013 7:16 p.m.
smash10101 says... #33
Oh, do you not tag the cards inside the combo? That could be where I was having problems. I guess it should be Island + Storm Crow? That seemed to work.
yeaGO!: It seems I was a tad confused, ignore my comment about the single bracket thing. I think that if we have to put our combos in brackets, there is no reason to limit the number of cards allowed in a single combo. I just made a deck that uses a 5 or 6 card combo, but alas, no tag :(. Anyways, I think we could go with both ideas for modular combos, or at least add the tags to cards just to make the card database more searchable when you're looking for things. Being able to search for all cards that Wheel of Fortune of some kind is something that is difficult on gatherer and could increase the use of T/O's card search function.
December 23, 2013 7:18 p.m.
Elite Arcanist + Triton Tactics + Zhur-Taa Druid
You misspelled zhur-taa druid.
December 23, 2013 7:19 p.m.
I was sort of joking - it is ridiculous. But yeagGo did say i could be used for synergies as well as combos
December 23, 2013 7:19 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #37
@fluffybunnypants: I don't want someone submitting combo entries for every possible permutation of storm.
@yeaGO!: Permission to nuke all existing combos? I want to reset the system so we don't have idiotic entries like Pit Fight + Fling . Right now, there are more chaff entries than useful ones.
We should also have combos go through an approval process like the one we have for card submissions. That way, we can weed out the non-combos.
December 23, 2013 7:21 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #38
I also think we need to draw the line before synergies because synergies are not so much a slippery slope as they are a vertical drop. There are so many possible, yet unnecessary entries for synergies, and people will add the most useless of them. See my previous post for an example.
December 23, 2013 7:23 p.m.
No, I feel there should be an "interchangeable" feature of some kind also, but how to go about that will be rather bothersome, since you can interchange the same card for different functions. For example, Palinchron could be useful for either is land untapping (with something like Deadeye Navigator , so Great Whale could be sub'd for it) or it could be used for its self-bounce (say an Animar, Soul of Elements deck, in which case Dream Stalker would be a suitable sub).
I think you see the dilemma, making a generic sub for x cards won't work, he'll have to be a little creative with that feature if he plans to implement one.
December 23, 2013 7:26 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #40
@ Epochalyptik: So.... just make entries using the finishing card? (i.e. Grapeshot or Tendrils of Agony ) Does Goblin Charbelcher count?
I think the approval process is a good call as well.
December 23, 2013 7:27 p.m.
Epochalyptik can you set some guidelines or something about it. I think we need a clear indication of when to stop. It could be a featured thread. You could just say - good: Melira, Sylvok Outcast + Kitchen Finks . bad: Melira, Sylvok Outcast + Kitchen Finks + Grave Pact + Viscera Seer .
December 23, 2013 7:28 p.m.
Too many people are adding good synergy as combos.
Combos are a combination or string of cards that allow a win barring a counter or removal.
Good synergy is something like Obzedat + Whip of Erebos, which isn't a guaranteed win, but a strong board state which may lead to a win condition, which can be raced.
December 23, 2013 9:24 p.m.
The new system is really just being abused so far, thats what I'm seeing.
Black Lotus
+Black Lotus
December 23, 2013 9:25 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #44
Using the PS3 for posting is incredibly annoying. Shift + Backspace = delete everything. rage
The combo list is already at the 1.5k mark, it is going to take a long time fixing all of these.
As such, I agree with Epochalyptik on nuking the entire list and starting over again, yeaGO!. This way you can change your little blerb underneath the deck description in the edit your deck page. Change it to only combos and NOT SYNERGIES. Then we can have a description stating that a combo is a select few cards whose abilities are meant to be used in tandem with other cards. The combo would present a scenario of play that would be unable to be executed in normal situations, and at times result in a situation in which one player has been given an extreme advantage or a guaranteed win.
Synergy is when various cards interact with each other at a small to a medium degree, but the cards can be used alone and may hold a purpose that is unrelated to the synergy. For example: Death's Shadow + Vendetta would be considered synergy whereas Lightning Greaves + Paradise Mantle + Puresteel Paladin (metalcraft active or can use Auriok Steelshaper ) can be considered a combo and Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest an infinite combo.
May want to change the wording to be something shorter, but having a description which dictates the line between the two would be very helpful. At any time someone may question synergy vs combo they are free to ask.
I also agree that combos should be added like the card image database, and for T/O to have a tab for them just like the cards. How we would organize the list is up for debate, but I think it should be listed in categories like "mana combo", "life combo", "damage combo", "counters combo", "mill combo", "tokens combo", "draw combo", "discard combo", "exile combo", "ETB combo" and "LTB combo". Then by alphabetical order with the first card listed.
Having said function would eliminate the Forest + Island combos, as the requests would be monitored and occasionally edited by commited users following a community created guideline.
That's all I can think of right now ... I won't start fixing the combo list until a decision to nuke the combo list comes to a yay or a nay.
And thank you yeaGO! for granting me this privilege! Now I can be of direct use to the community even without being able to add images anymore thanks to my hardware disability.
December 23, 2013 10:59 p.m.
doinitwrong says... #45
Might I suggest also not allowing people to add/suggest combos including basic lands? The only things I can think of involving them are synergistic, not combos.
December 23, 2013 11:33 p.m.
smash10101 says... #46
I don't know doinitwrong, Island + Storm Crow is pretty game ending. As is Chimney Imp + Swamp. But really, there might be a few edge cases where basic lands matter. Not that I can think of any. Now I really want to come up with something that requires a basic land.
December 23, 2013 11:46 p.m.
Well I don't want to leave synergies out in the cold. Just saying.
December 24, 2013 12:16 a.m.
Borborygmos Enraged
+ Mountain
has won me games before ;)
But synergies are just, well... not the same as combos. I mean, thats what the description is there for anyways, and intro, synergy explanation, and whatever else.
December 24, 2013 12:18 a.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #49
Synergies based on keywords would be more useful, I think. Something like Sanguine Bond and Exquisite Blood each have synergy with Lifelink, but Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond is a damage/lifegain combo.
December 24, 2013 12:22 a.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #50
Whoops, I said damage... I meant life loss combo...
And there should always be an upper limit to the number of cards in a combo. Unbounded variables on the internet are bad! :)
JaredMatthewsArtwork says... #1
pretty much what smash said. Sometimes, sadly, I don't always help out some people while they're asking questions in draft sim just because I don't want to irritate everyone else by cluttering up the chat or they leave the room and there's no way to answer them except going to their page and leaving a comment.
December 21, 2013 6:20 p.m.