Help us help you
TappedOut forum
Posted on March 29, 2014, 5:52 p.m. by Epochalyptik
Anyone who's been fairly active in the past few weeks may have noticed we've been having a few difficulties. We'd like to turn to you, the users, to brainstorm some solutions.
The issues:
- Non-rules posts in the Q&A
We added a filter page to the Q&A that prompts users to pick what kind of question they have before continuing. If you have a rules question, you're directed to the Q&A. Otherwise, you're directed to another forum. This worked for a while, but we're still getting people posting non-rules questions in the Q&A.
- Q&A posts outside of the Q&A.
I suspect that this problem is due in part to users not knowing that the Q&A exists, or not understanding what purpose it serves. Thoughts?
- The General forum being improperly used.
Some of you may have seen the featured thread "The General forum is not a dumping ground," which covers in more detail the current problem with the General forum. Basically, General is meant to house threads that don't belong in other forums. However, many users are using General as a catch-all forum rather than posting specific threads in the relevant forums.
I have since moved the General forum to a spot near the bottom of the forum listings in the hopes that users will scroll through the other listings first and select the most relevant one, but I won't immediately know whether this change is effective.
Contribute your thoughts and suggestions, please. We may not end up implementing every suggestion, but the brainstorming process is extremely helpful, and it helps us find solutions we haven't yet tried.
From a user's perspective, how do you understand the problems? Do you think they could be remedied by design changes? What can we do to improve?
I still think that MTG Q&A should be MTG RULES Q&A instead so people can see it's for rules and not general questions. Or put a link to the Q&A on the Forums page at the top with a disclaimer that says it's only for rules questions.
March 29, 2014 5:55 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
@Matsi883: How exactly would this work? Would there be a centralized "new post" option that sorted your post based on the selected criteria? Would you post in an individual forum, but have to meet the requirements before posting there?
I've pitched the idea that users should take a quiz (think comment tutorial) before posting a new thread. If I have to move your thread, I reset your quiz so you have to take it again. I don't know if that would help, though.
March 29, 2014 5:58 p.m.
There would be the centralized option.
You could also put a Magic CAPTCHA there, like: What is the (link to article on CMC) converted mana cost(/link) of RANDOM CARD?
March 29, 2014 6 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #6
Honestly, I think that if there were some sort of tutorial for the entire site implemented that wasn't optional, this wouldn't be nearly as big a problem. I know that one of the things that I had trouble with when I started here was not knowing where anything that I wanted was, or not knowing that things even existed.
Say, once a user signs up (or at any time via an option up top), they are taken to a page that has something like the comment tutorial, but it is for things like the forums, for the draft section, for the deck builder, for anything else that the site offers. If you make this mandatory (at least once for each user), I feel that there will A: be less of an issue with people not knowing what is where / how to use things and B: Next to zero spam accounts posting on the forums, which I have seen as an issue recently.
How exactly this could be done, I am not sure, just tossing an idea out there.
March 29, 2014 6:01 p.m.
miracleHat says... #7
I agree with ThatBlueMage, a forum tutorial would be great! I left a message on epochs wall, i wonder what he thinks. Something simple to add would be a link on the forums page to the q&a.
March 29, 2014 6:09 p.m.
I've been on tapped out for about a year, and I just recently figured out where the Q & A forum is. Maybe when you remind people that their post should be in the Q&A you can add "you can find the link for that, in between forums and articles on the top bar of the website" or something like that. I think that would help new users figure out where it actually is.
March 29, 2014 6:12 p.m.
Remove the 'General' Forum.
Clearly everything posted can be categorized further than simply 'General', so it stands to reason the forum 'General' shouldn't exist, as technically, nothing is 'General'.
As far as user's posting deck help in the Q&A etc, your quiz idea seems very feasible.
March 29, 2014 6:19 p.m.
I second the idea of a required tutorial page to read before posting. Sneak in a code word somewhere in the tutorial that people have to type in at the end to prove that they read it. You could change the word every month or so, if necessary. It might not solve all your problems, but it could help get people educated on forum procedures.
March 29, 2014 6:25 p.m.
Why don't you do a checkbox everytime you post that says like - 'this is a rules question' (in the Q&A) or 'this is about deck help' (in the deck help forum). Every time you priview a post before sending it you have to check the checkbox.
March 29, 2014 6:25 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
@Behgz: I don't want to simply remove General as an option because there are plenty of threads that can't easily be categorized into another forum. For example, the "what kind of player are you" or broad discussion threads are perfect for General. I'd rather change the way people understand General.
@JWiley129 and playingonabudget: Your comments indicate a common idea in discussions like this, which is that users who post rules questions in General may not know that the Q&A exists for that purpose. I agree that changing the name would help.
@ThatBlueMage: I thought briefly about doing a series of very short video tutorials and uploading them to YouTube, but I never found the time for the project. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like my schedule will accommodate that project in the near future, either.
@ChiefBell: That seems like an extra step in the process of incorrect usage rather than a step in the process of understanding usage; a user who has already written out a post for a specific forum will probably check the box just so he or she doesn't have to move the post. In that sense, a centralized posting option might prove viable, but it would involve us creating a hierarchy of checkboxes and answer weights that will sort the post for the user.
March 29, 2014 6:30 p.m.
miracleHat says... #13
@Epochalyptik, it doesn't have to be you who makes the video. It doesn't even have to be a video. Something like the comment tutorial where you have like a multiple choice quiz.
March 29, 2014 6:41 p.m.
Make a Thread forum Titled, 'Noise' or 'Babble' to give these random, vague topics a place to call home, as 'General' is serious business.
March 29, 2014 6:47 p.m.
This might not be feasible but could you possibly add a button to posts similar to YouTube's flag as spam that users can select if a thread is in the wrong place? I would see it as like a drop box option that allows the users to select where it should go and the thread moves automatically if enough people flag it. That would allow the site to maintain itself so it's easier on you in the long run, although admittedly it would probably be a little difficult to set up in the first place, what do you guys think?
March 29, 2014 6:54 p.m.
this may seem a little extreme, but you could always delete or hide the general forum for a while. that would force people to not be lazy and look for a place to put things.
any question can be linked to one of the other forums in one way or another. maybe adding one or two extra forum types like "Opinions" or "Format and Archetypes" and deleting the general forum would be a good solution. Just spitballing.
March 29, 2014 6:55 p.m.
You could make it to where the 'Noise' or 'Babble' threads don't get cycled in the recent forum post's on the homepage, as it would likely be a popular spot out the gate, but is inherently pointless 'Noise' or 'Babble', and therefore isn't essential to being seen to the community at large.
The check box thing on the preview new Post is probably one of the best ways to pre-sort new threads.
March 29, 2014 6:58 p.m.
sorry, commented first, read others afterward.
it seems to me that most of the offending comments are people who either are too lazy and just don't look for somewhere else for where their comments are supposed to go, or are inexperienced and don't understand there is 15 different forums and their question or topic is better suited in one of them. I do agree something along the lines of a check sheet would be the best option, however another good idea would be something along the lines of forum tags, kind of like the hubs. you could slim it down to just one forum, and have tags that are both searchable and addable by other users with a certain T/O ranking (so spam accounts don't go screwing things up).
March 29, 2014 7:28 p.m.
McSleuthburger says... #20
No matter what you do newer members or inactive members that are not around often will always ask questions in the first place they can because they are hoping for a fast response. At least that is what I see when I mod other forums/games. We have a chatbox on our main forum page and on top of the chatbox there is "the game is not out yet, please dont ask" and there are people all the time that still ask if the game is out yet.
my only real suggestion is if you have a section where most questions/problems can be answered maybe put that near the top because that will be the first thing people read (usually) and then the more specific areas can be listed later. Maybe have the Q&A at the top of the forums instead of on its own page so everyone can see it .Also maybe have a specific "dumping ground area" where people can really put anything?
You cant force people to read everything because 99% of the time they wont
March 29, 2014 7:41 p.m.
smash10101 says... #21
I have long been an advocate of renaming the Q&A. My vote is to replace the word "MTG" with the word "Rules" so it reads "Rules Q&A." I do not think it would fix the whole problem, but it would really help with the new users not knowing what the Q&A is for and hopefully help with the people who aren't used to needing to look at what they're posting.
I also like the mandatory tutorial. I think it would be helpful for new users, and it would make it harder for spammers to make an account. (Especially if it gets (optionally) reset every time a mod moves/deletes a post) I also like the Magic CAPTCHA idea, though I would only put that at the bottom of the tutorial or user sign up page.
March 29, 2014 7:55 p.m.
As other users stated in this thread, I think that a tutorial for the entire site would be very beneficial for everyone that is a part of this community. I think it would encourage more people following articles, drafts, streams, and community projects in general.
One thing that garners Hatred from users, myself included, is a random tutorial that just forces you to go everywhere at once. If you or any of the other administrators for the site made specific tutorials for each section, (forum, commenting, decks, Q&A) I think that many of these problems with posts being in the wrong place would Dissipate due to users being more knowledgeable.
I do like the idea of making someone take the tutorial again after they post a comment in the wrong area. This would be very frustrating; it would force people to learn the tutorials or suffer repeated annoyance (I'm looking at you, Resetti.)
Another idea for the double-posts I have seen flying around the forums like a Devouring Swarm is to make a Trip Wire for duplicate titles. This would not only reduce your work by changing the amount of posts you need to delete, but would also tip off users if a post with the name of a card or archetype was already made to discuss price, strategies, etc.
I can understand that these could be difficult to implement correctly, but I see you moving threads on the forums every day and were I put in your position, I would be very fed up. These suggestions are only to help administrative duties and also to make the site experience for users more enjoyable. We all value your work and time spent on this site, Epochalyptik.
March 29, 2014 8:29 p.m.
1) Both suggestions of changing the name to Rules Q&A and making a checkbox are very solid- little more you can do about that other than putting obnoxious, attention-grabbing text in the way.
2) Perhaps put an extra check box or red text in every section of the forum, right where one posts a thread- one stating what sort of threads the forum is intended to house and having a link to a page similar to the one currently existing for the question portion of the site. That page could be a directory to each forum, stating what goes where. Hell, you could do away with directly posting to a specific forum entirely, requiring users to first choose what sort of topic they want to post about, then automatically placing it in the right forum.
3) I'll stand by my suggestion that the "General" forum be renamed- the name itself implies a sort of dumping ground and melting pot. With a name like "Other - MTG", it would be more obvious what threads it is meant to house.
March 29, 2014 8:41 p.m.
With a check box your gonna still run into the same problems as you have now. People in a rush, people who don't care, new users that aren't aware of the procedure, and countless others will write out a new topic and when they get to the preview post page they'll just click the check box at the top of the list and then post their topic. So all that's going to do is make whatever the top check box on the list is the new dumping ground. I honestly believe simplicity would be the best way to fix the problems. Your in a situation where you must rely on others to either know how things work or take the time to figure it out, which is a bad situation to be in when you consider the potential millions of people who could come across this site. Some people are just really into the interactions that happen here on the message boards and that isn't an issue for those people. To your average everyday person, who has other concerns and doesn't typically spend a couple hours on the site every time they visit, expecting them to go out of their way to learn the "forum ways" when they first arrive here is, in reality, asking too much. When someone goes to post a new topic or ask a question about something they shouldn't have to quiz themselves and run down a checklist just so it ends up in the "proper" forum. Things should be painstakingly obvious. An example that I've mentioned a few times before and have seen others mention here would be to do something as simple as changing MTG Q&A to MTG RULES Q&A. Q&A = questions and answers!!!!!!!! In no way does MTG Q&A imply that is for rules questions only. I know there has been the recent change where it says "i have a question about...." and you have to click a link, but that just brings me back to what I said before about relying on others to go out of their way to do something extra before they can accomplish what they're trying to do. Again, I just really think simplifying things is the way to go if you want to appeal to anyone who may come across this site and not just those that already spend hours on this site and other message boards. Whether that means doing something as simple as changing the name of something to make it more obvious what it's for or combining different forums so there is less maintenance, that's totally up to you. Like, I understand the point of having a deck help forum, but getting rid of that and allowing people to post their deck questions in the proper format's forum would work equally as good. Then it would keep everything from format specific questions to questions on decks made for that specific format all together in one place making it "painfully obvious" where things should go. That would mean no more having to move standard deck help questions out of the "standard forum" and other things of that nature for example. It would also make things easier because 1. there is fewer areas that need to be monitored and 2. fewer specialized areas means fewer posts are likely to end up in the wrong spot. If I have a question about something involving my standard deck then it would OBVIOUSLY go into the standard forum. As things are now, if I have a question about something involving my standard deck I have to ask myself several questions first before I can post my question. Like, is this about a specific situations that came up, or is this about something pertaining more to the standard format than it is my deck, or is this about a specific rule on a card i'm using in that deck, and countless other things just so I can determine what the appropriate place to post my question is, and even then once I've determined the appropriate place to put my question its very possible that as the conversation goes on it gets a little off topic and then my post gets moved anyways (something that has happened to me before). In my honest opinion the "deck help" forum is pointless. The only time you'd enter that forum is if your posting a new topic. I know there are tons of helpful people on this site but people don't come on here specifically looking to tell other people how to build their decks or what changes to make, so unless your topic is on the front page under the "latest forum activity" then it's likely the only people who will actually see it are the people who enter that forum specifically to ask their own question (which doesn't actually guarantee your topic gets seen or responded to).
Whatever changes you guys decide to make, just don't over think it. People don't want to do extra work every time the post something just to make things easier on you when it comes to maintaining the site. It was your decision to be apart of the "backbone" of this site not ours. If it's a lot of work for you to handle and take care of then that's something you should have considered before getting involved or should really consider before moving forward. I know this last part seems harsh and I'm not saying it to be an asshole or anything of that nature. I'm saying it because in all honesty it's the truth and something you guys will have to consider as you plan any changes. I know keeping members that you already have is important and why you've asked for suggestions from the members, but making things simple and obvious will be much easier on you when it comes to the general masses of people.
March 29, 2014 8:47 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #25
@GoofyFoot: I'm having a hard time envisioning how exactly forum tags would be helpful. Most people don't even read the forum descriptions. What would tags do for us?
@McSleuthburger: A dumping ground is exactly what I want to avoid. I don't want to have to search through the forums for misplaced threads. Rather, I want to make the system as close to idiotproof as possible so a new user can go right to the forum listings and understand exactly what he or she is seeing.
March 29, 2014 8:48 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #26
Also, remember that I'm not in charge of any of the advanced layout or options. I do mostly content generation, DB stuff, and some static page work. I don't have the power to rename "MTG Q&A" to something, so keep that in mind when you suggest that it be done. I'm just the messenger for most of these ideas.
@abenz419: Please paragraph your posts; it's really hard to read a wall of unseparated text. On the actual ideas: I don't like the idea of eliminating the Deck Help forum. The reason it exists is to keep the format-specific forums "cleaner." If we merged format forums with Deck Help, 75% of every format's forum would be DH posts, and it would be very difficult for users to find discussions on the format itself. Those discussions are worth having, so it's worth making them easier to find.
Regarding your last paragraph, I know you mention that it isn't meant to be harsh, but it is. I donate a significant amount of my time to helping this community. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the community to not make my job harder than it needs to be. I'm here specifically because I care enough about this site and this community to want to make them better. I could bow out and ignore the challenge of making the site better and easier for the user, but I don't want to because that doesn't help anyone.
Furthermore, the whole intent of this discussion is to find ways to make the site more straightforward. Most established users know where to put things. I'm concerned with making it clear to the first-timer where everything should go. I'm not being unreasonable when I consider the options. I explicitly acknowledged that the reason checkboxes might fail is that people will see it as another step and rush through it rather than using it as it was intended to be used. I'm not trying to add more steps between signing up and using the site. I'm trying to cut out the unnecessary work on both the general users and myself.
March 29, 2014 9:03 p.m.
McSleuthburger says... #27
Epochalyptik I understand that you ware not in charge of layout, but would you want more options/sections to be displayed at first with no increase in navigation to post/view something?
maybe cut down the space the space each section takes up, instead of having each section as a rectangle underneath each other have them more square like so you can fit 2 sections on the first row and that will let people see more of their options/sections without scrolling down (though some things (like thread names) might have to be cut down to keep it looking neat) (Also this could be a pain for users with smaller screens)
so instead of:
Deck Help
Spoilers and Rumors
Economics
it can be:
Deck Help (small gap) Spoilers and Rumors
Economics (small gap) Lore
the more I type out this idea the less I like it hehe, but I dont know if there is a way to make users slow down and read....
March 29, 2014 9:51 p.m.
I agree that "mtg q&a" should be "rules q&a". As for the general forums, that could simply be changed to "miscellaneous" or "off-topic".
After reading the original question, I started browsing around and realized how easy this site is to navigate. I feel like that would solve most problems with posts in the wrong forums.
The only other thing I'd suggest would be to use more sub-forums in the forum tab, for example - "Deck Help" could be a main forum with the sub-forums (or even a dropdown box) for the format and colors the deck is using. I feel you could also have a larger heading of "Discussion" and have sub-forums for each format, e.g. Standard/Modern/Commander/Vintage, etc, and that should help condense the scrollbar on the side of the screen as the forum tab is rather lengthy.
The major topics I'd personally recommend would be Deck Help, Discussion, Miscellaneous, and maybe 1-2 more.
If I have time, I'll work on making an example of what I imagine the forum tab should look like.
March 29, 2014 9:59 p.m.
Here's how I think the forum tab should look-
(the * means hyperlink to a page that shows last 5-10 posts for each location)
I also forgot how to make a link on here, so here's the url to the picture-
http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad169/Who_Am/Tappedout_zps61b8954a.png
March 29, 2014 10:12 p.m.
What I meant when I said that I wasn't trying to be an asshole by saying it, is that it's not specifically how I feel or that it doesn't specifically reflect my point of view. I know it's harsh but it's the truth and if your really trying to cater to the new member with these changes then it's definitely something you need to know. The new user doesn't know you and they don't know/care how much time you've already dedicated to making this site better. Think of it this way, when's the last time you went to a website for the first time and thought "Man, the guy who works on this section really works hard and does a lot for this site"? Probably never, which is exactly what is going on when new people show up here. They don't think about the amount of work you put in they're just trying see if they can figure things out and then do something. If not, then they're moving on to something else. I hope you don't take that the wrong way because I know it's harsh but i'm sure your smart enough to understand, that's how the world works.
That's why I was suggesting simplicity and used the phrase "painfully obvious". New users should be able to show up and immediately know how to navigate the site (almost instinctively). That's why I think a mandatory tutorial would be a bad idea. I think there is a serious problem if you need a tutorial teaching people how things are done because it should be so simple and easy to navigate at a glance that literally anyone could do it. The more you make people have to work in order to accomplish what they want to do, the less appealing the site will be to newer members and eventually even older ones. So again I'll just suggest that you guys don't over think it or at least don't over complicate it. Literally anyone could come across the site and be a potential member. That means potentially millions of people (who don't know you or the amount of work put into this site) have to be able to immediately understand what is going on the first time they show up.
March 29, 2014 11:08 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #31
@abenz419: You're still misunderstanding. I don't care whether anyone knows who did what. I care that someone does what needs to be done. You seem only to be reiterating points I explicitly said I already understood, and I don't know what you're trying to accomplish by doing so. This will be the end of this digression; I want to keep this thread on topic.
@BeatAll: That mockup looks feasible from a usability standpoint, but it's not up to me to implement it. I'll mention your post number to the others.
March 29, 2014 11:16 p.m.
abenz419: That is just not true. The majority of websites of this nature have tutorials. The largest example I know of is Reddit, due to the massive amount of viewers per day. I am personally not a user, but from the site's layout, much of it is unknown to the untrained eye. I have seen a small sidebar on it that included a tutorial to learn to use the site, and it explicitly said to read it before posting.
The difference between here and Reddit is that our savior, Epoch, has jurisdiction over all of the forum posts, and such he is able to move them around. In Reddit, this would not be the case, but you can still see that the user-base thrives.
I actually find that when I enter a new website, a tutorial that gently guides you is more helpful than a 'fend for yourself' mindset. I don't want to be dragged around as I iterated earlier, but I do want to be told what does what. Your request for simplicity leads to a lack in quality on the part of the site, and thus a lack of community happiness, which breeds more annoyance than a tutorial would in the first place.
A somewhat far-fetched idea, but an idea that I believe a lot of users would support is the implementation of a small 'user bar.' 10 slots on the side, top (right below the actual top bar), or even bottom of the screen where users could anchor decks, users, or articles for the ability to continuously go back to them on a single click. I do enjoy the folders tab, as it saves me a lot of time, but if you ever decide to go for something that makes people feel as if they have more control over the site, I would go with something of this nature.
yeaGO! has already stated that he plans to make a chat function, which I wholeheartedly support. That is another part of the site, independent from the forums, that could be improved.
March 29, 2014 11:44 p.m.
I think abenz has a point. Something that makes T/O unique is we have a lot of newcomers and long time returning players. It's chilly to come to a new community and think you've done something wrong. Also, I'm hard pressed to see how some forum, at the end of the day, won't be a dumping ground.
Jus chiming in. Keep arguing, but keep your arguments brief. :)
March 30, 2014 12:16 a.m.
what was I trying to accomplish??? It's like you forgot that you had responded to my first post. What I was trying to accomplish is to better explain that last paragraph for you because you seemed to have trouble understanding. I was simply pointing out something that is a fact and a reality and you seemed to take offense to that. You then proceeded to tell me about how much you do around here and how you could drop out but you care too much to do that as if you were trying to prove something. It's because you felt the need to point how much work you do (and it not being the first time I've seen you do it) that as I was reexplaining that last paragraph for you, I made sure to that I kept reiterating that the people these changes are supposed to affect the most (new members) don't know who you are. There would be no need to accuse me of having a misunderstanding if you didn't feel the need to prove your worth, all because in an effort to stress how simplicity would be the best course of action I pointed out the reality that new people aren't gonna show up and care about how much work you have to do. Yeah I know, it sucks to not be recognized for your hard work. That's still not gonna change how new people are gonna think the first time they show up here. Hopefully, now you understand what i was trying to accomplish by RESPONDING TO YOU, if not then things getting posting in the wrong area isn't the only problem you have.
March 30, 2014 12:19 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #35
@abenz419: No. I felt the need to clarify that I understand what the workload is, and that I am still committed to the project.
If it's a lot of work for you to handle and take care of then that's something you should have considered before getting involved or should really consider before moving forward.
That sentence indicates to me that you think that I'm either just complaining or in over my head. I responded specifically to this point with a single paragraph to clarify that this is not the case. This isn't a "prove your worth" debate. You're now conflating me disagreeing with this particular sentiment with me disagreeing with your main argument, which is that the site should be usable. I want the site to be usable. That's, to use your phrase, "painfully obvious."
Furthermore, you're the one bringing up the "they don't know who you are" point. As I said in 2:10, I don't care who does what, or who knows who did what. I never even mentioned the idea until you brought it up. It isn't relevant to the conversation at all.
I'll put it in simple terms for you:
I want the site to be more user friendly. I don't care how it gets there, who has to do the work, or whether anyone knows who does the work.
March 30, 2014 12:33 a.m.
@Jacques I'm not saying the idea of a tutorial is always a bad idea, just not in this case. The idea is to reduce/eliminate the amount of things that are posted in the wrong spot in order to create less of a workload when it comes to maintenance while making the site easy to use and understand for new comers. Keeping things simple and easy will reduce the opportunities for mistakes to even happen, which I think would be a better course of action than trying to implement a tutorial where you have to hope people actually pay attention to it and follow it. The idea is that if you make it harder for people to screw up, then you have less problems you have to fix. It's not a fend for yourself mentality because the idea is that things are set up so simply and obviously that there is no learning curve, you just simply see it and understand whats going on.
P.S. Like you, I'm not a reddit user or extremely familiar with all the ins and outs of their site, but I find it very hard to believe that they don't have anyone to monitor and maintain their forums in the same way epoch does here. They may not announce themselves in the same way epoch does, but i'm sure they are there. A smaller site like this one has a hard enough time keeping things squared away as it is (evident by this topic) I doubt a site that has a much larger member base and even more traffic would go without someone doing maintenance. In fact they probably have a team of people who do it and not just one person because of how large the site is.
March 30, 2014 12:50 a.m.
I disagree to the above. Epoch is particularly diligent. :)
March 30, 2014 1:18 a.m.
I still believe a quick (and mandatory) posting guide/tutorial is in order. If people can't be bothered to follow a few simple rules, then why should the admin be bothered to move around their half-assed post?
Simplifying the forums will help, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have a few expectations of your users before they post a topic.
March 30, 2014 1:23 a.m.
@Epochalyptik ahh ok there's the misunderstand. Like i clarified, that last paragraph wasn't something that reflected my point of view. Also, by isolating that one sentence, your taking it slightly out of context. That statement goes hand in hand with everything said before it in that paragraph.
To paraphrase, I said keep it simple, people aren't gonna show up and want to do a bunch of extra work just to make your life simpler because it was your choice to be apart of this not theirs.
So, even as harsh as it seems, it's something I felt like you guys should know since new members are your biggest target for these changes and most of the suggestions I had seen, while sound and solid ideas on their own, just seemed to add new steps that could potentially lead to just as many if not more mistakes being made rather than eliminating or reducing them. Hence me suggesting to keep it simple. It was never a direct attack on you or anyone else, just a way to emphasize why simplicity would appeal to newer people
March 30, 2014 1:37 a.m.
@yeaGO! lol. No matter how diligent he is, I still highly doubt there isn't a person or team of people in charge of doing the same thing for their site that Epoch does for this site.
@Araganor If people can't be bothered to follow a few simple rules, then why should the admin be bothered to move around their half-assed post? Because the admins want the forums to stay as clean and as organized as possible. That's why having a tutorial wouldn't solve the problems the admins are having. A tutorial would just be something people skimmed over and got through as quick as possible which would result in nothing being changed. You have to remember just because they get through the tutorial doesn't mean they're going to follow it.
March 30, 2014 1:50 a.m.
Not to disagree with you, abenz419 because I definitely think you have a point about people not wanting to spend a lot of time on a new site when it has some stipulations but...
I do have a few pieces of information that change my opinion.
1: TappedOut has the nicest UI of any MTG site I've seen.
It is organized, classy and much more user friendly than others. MTG Vault makes me cringe a bit when I look at the background. I think this, coupled with the fact that many users here recommend their friends and show them around (unless I'm the only one who shows my MTG friends this), allows TappedOut to have a good membership, as evidenced by the nearly 10,000 ranked accounts.
2: TappedOut has active and public administrators.
This may seem like a small deal, but from my experiences on various forums, games and websites, those that have active and sociable administrators normally do much better than those that don't. Familiar faces that guide the community make people feel more welcomed and comfortable, encouraging more use.
These two together make the website VERY appealing to players new and old looking for feedback or just new deck ideas. I think the focus should be on guiding and not forcing people to do things, but there needs to be a balance with this. As I am getting more and more offtopic by each post, I am going to stop my tangent and allow the conversation to flow again.
March 30, 2014 2:12 a.m.
@abenz419: By your logic, no amount of simplifying would be sufficient. There are always going to be people who don't pay attention, there is no such thing as foolproof.
I agree that the forums would benefit from a bit of simplification, but to address the problem of people not understanding where to post, a simple little bit of instruction before posting could easily help a new poster. Your argument is that people will skip the tutorial because they are lazy. Perhaps a lazy poster might get discouraged by a bit of required reading, but do you really think that the few people who skim the mandatory reading (again, I propose a code word hidden in the text to prove that you actually read it) would be that bad when you consider that many posters with good intentions genuinely don't understand where to post their question?
You say "just because they get through the tutorial doesn't mean they're going to follow it". So, how exactly does making the forum simpler to use prevent people from breaking the rules that would be in place either way? You think that a tutorial is too much, but clearly letting people figure it out on their own isn't working.
March 30, 2014 3:04 a.m.
People not following instructions implies that there is one of two problems:
1) The site is not intuitively designed,
or
2) The users who make errors do not care, or do not pay attention.
On the first issue:
Either the text isn't clear, big, and bright enough, or people are not reading. The text links are blue and visible, and clearly explain what they lead to. Looks like that's one strike against the user base for not reading.
On the second issue:
I can see that someone might interpret the big button at the top of the page labeled MTG Q&A as not necessarily rules based. People who are unfamiliar with the site and are looking for a quick answer might just go directly to the forums and not see the Q&A button. In either case, it's haste or laziness. There's another strike against the community.
...The Q&A is a nifty thing, and it would be a shame to erase it, but I think having a rules forum, while worsening the concept in general, might actually make more people post in the appropriate place. This doesn't seem like a valid suggestion even from me, but it's a shot.
On the third issue:
General is a word that allows for laziness, and all people, especially me, are stupid. Whoops, there's the third strike Tappedout community.
You're outta there!
March 30, 2014 3:14 a.m.
Unforgivn_II says... #45
It seems to me that the issue isn't to eradicate misplaced posts, but to minimize them. When the human element is involved, prediction becomes a probability as opposed to a certainty. If we aim to make the system better at guiding the people towards the preferred actions, those who are rule-followers and people-pleasers (like me) will strive to do what is asked. There's a bad apple in every bunch, and Epoch is here to account for those instances. Making the system more simple (and thus, more unclear) just makes for more unnecessary work.
I second the notion to rename the Q&A "Rules Q&A". Another thing that would entice users to use this would be a filter page before a misplaced forum post is posted saying something along the lines of: "Is this post about an in-game rules interaction? Using the 'Rules Q&A' will get you a faster, more accurate response!" Everyone loves that instant gratification.
March 30, 2014 4:39 a.m.
@KevinBasham I completely agree that 'General' is a word that can be interpreted far too loosely and as a result you get any and every type of post in it.
Acknowledging that is the first step. Once we can identify that as a serious issue, we can move forward.
There are only two options in regards to how the 'General' Forum should be handled going forward;
1) Continue to patrol the Forum and move threads on a daily basis, aka do nothing about the current set-up.
2) Change the current set-up, either by removing the 'General' Forum, or renaming it. I already suggested the Forum Title of 'Noise' or 'Babble' as there's always a need for a 'Dumping Ground' of sorts on web based forums.
Rather than continue to patrol the 'General' Forum in an attempt to maintain the integrity of the site, I really don't see why it's so important to go about it this way as though the 'General' Forum exemplifies how the rest of the world views TO.net, the 'General' Forum could simply be removed or at the least renamed to accommodate any and all types of posts, eliminating the need for it to be patrolled.
The problems arising out of the current set-up of the 'General' Forum seems to outweigh the inherent good it is meant to provide, as such I am resubmitting my initial idea to Remove the General Forum, or at the least Rename it 'Noise' or 'Babble'.
Either something Major should be done about the 'General' Forum or we should just stop caring that Epoch is upset with the average user posting in it incorrectly, as it's not the average user's fault that the site has a loosely labeled Forum such as 'General'.
March 30, 2014 5:40 p.m.
If only tappedout had a userbase that could follow basic instructions.....
March 30, 2014 5:44 p.m.
ChiefBell if only anybody that used the internet could follow basic instructions...
Matsi883 says... #2
I have voiced this solution twice, but I'll state it again.
We could have a checkbox, like:
Checkbox: This question concerns the Magic rules.
Checkbox: This is about help for your deck.
And so on, with all the different forums.
March 29, 2014 5:55 p.m.