Epochalyptik, it might help to change the descriptions on some of the Forum sections. For example the Lore Forum states "Discussion of MTG story and lore. Please keep -speculation- and non-lore discussion in the General forum." Wouldn't it serve better to change it so it reads that speculations should be moved to Spoilers and Rumors?

When Spoilers and Rumors reads, "SPECULATION and discussion of upcoming cards, products, and more."

Honestly..the reason people just put it in general is because of one or more of the following reasons: 1. People are lazy 2. People are anxious to get their question answered 3. The process as a whole is overly tedious. 4. People are unfamiliar with all of the different places you can post. The process needs to be streamlined; more simplified. Example have a Create post tab, then have a Title and body section then a series of check boxes that help filter where the post is posted.

@mymanpotsandpans: Good catch. I added Lore before S&R, so I never thought to check the descriptions again and update them to reflect the new options.

@Behgz: I disagree with you that the word "General" is inherently bad. I would point to MTGS as an example, but I'm not sure whether that's a proper case because MTGS has a rather zealous moderating staff. I guess it's just dependent on site/user culture.

I actually didn't say it was inherently 'Bad'.

Summing up my articulate points and dismissing them is part of why I voiced the opinion that hearing you complain about these issues that mostly only pertain to you is getting tiresome. Especially when I try to provide decent feedback and it is dismissed immediately, or summed up incorrectly. Handle the situation however you want, I've given my opinion on the matter and how it could be rectified.

@Behgz: I didn't unnecessarily dismiss or incorrectly summarize anything here. First, contention #2 in post 3:5 relies heavily on the assumption that "General" is somehow a poor choice of name for a forum; "Noise" and "Babble" don't really do anything more than "General," and they imply that the forum is more of an off-topic area.

Furthermore, simply removing General is out of the question. It is an unrealistic solution to the problem. If we remove General, where do users put otherwise uncategorized posts? To avoid further confusion and miscategorization, we'd need to create a replacement forum, which means we'd be back in the same position we were in originally.

Both times you have suggested point #2, you've failed to explain how the "solution" really eliminates the problem. The above issues need to be addressed; otherwise, the plan doesn't get us anywhere.

To respond to another of your statements:
I take offense to the idea that this thread is somehow just me complaining, and especially that it's me complaining about something that's only relevant to me. The problem is relevant to all users. Some may not care because they aren't heavily invested in the site, but from an organization and usability perspective, it's worth our time to solve problems like this. As I said in an earlier debate, the entire point of this thread is to get the community's feedback so we can brainstorm viable solutions.

Viable solutions must be solutions to the current problem, yes, but they must also account for any resulting changes or issues. Deleting General is not a viable solution because while it does stop miscategorized posts in General, it doesn't actually stop miscategorized posts. It only prevents them from being placed in General because General doesn't exist anymore.

My initial suggestion was to just add a folder called 'noise' or 'babble' which would give all the mismatched topics a place to call home, considering 'General' has been such a mess lately, I suggested transforming 'General' into one of the these 'Dumping Ground' style Forums. rather than change 'General' we could add a "Dumping Grounds' forum, Literally call it 'Dumping Grounds' and make it so it doesn't hit the homepage when posted in. it will give a home to off-topic random posts, at the least it should take some of the load off the 'General' Forum. Feel free to rephrase it so you can take credit for it, I Don't Care, I'm just growing tired of seeing a PSA thread featured multiple weeks in a row belly aching about the average poster 'Dumping' his/her thoughts in the wrong folder, which will never stop btw.

Considering this is a web forum site, we have all come together to 'Chat' essentially, it stands to reason there should be an off-beat forum here for people who just want to shoot the ish with like-mind individuals.

I highly recommend adding a 'Noise' or 'babbling' Forum.

Once again, I don't care who comes up with the ideas. I care that the system is improved. Maybe you missed the last five times I said that.

We floated several months ago the idea of having an "invisible" off-topic forum that would function essentially as you describe, but the idea never went beyond that in either development or implementation. And honestly, I don't mind that it didn't. Yes, this is a community forum, but it's a Magic forum. I'm not wholly interested in catering to non-Magic content, and it's a low priority. The number of off-topic posts is typically very low -- only a few per month, if that -- and the main concern here is keeping non-General posts out of General. If a thread can be categorized into one of our other existing forums, it should go there. Creating an off-topic forum doesn't do anything to advance that goal.

Asking a question knowing you won't like the logical answer...

I seldom use any of TappedOut's tools besides the deckbuilder because outside the deckbuilder--which is one of the most amazing bits of software I've ever seen--the UI is really quite clunky.

I find the forums in particular rough to use. I have to scroll for hours to find a particular forum because each forum simply HAS to show me the three most active threads, posts take up a huge bit of space because the text is huge and take up less than half the space.

I understand needing to do this for mobile browsing, but here I am, looking at tapped out on a PC, and I have THREE WHOLE INCHES of empty screen on the right which isn't even used by the advertising banner on the top of the page.

As someone who grew up on old PHPBB forums, this feels horrible. I don't need 20 pt font and I don't want to scroll from New York to Boston just to read a thread.

Epoch, Random off the wall thought.

What about a screen between the Forums tab and the actual text entry with a list something like this:

Forums:
What type of post would you like to make? Check one.

[ ]General/Uncategorized
[ ]Standard related discussion
[ ]Modern related discussion
[ ]Deck help
[ ]MTG Rules questions[ ]etc.

Kinda like the screen before the Q&A. This could take the users to the correct place to post their item.

@Behgz: I don't see how your answer is the logical one. Deleting, ignoring, or effectively marginalizing the forum that needs to be improved is hardly logical or practical.

@Egann: A legitimate concern, and one the devs are currently discussing via other mediums. I like the idea of being able to see all of the forum names on a single page (see BeatAll's posts on page 2). Perhaps expanding text/toggles to show recent posts?

@Ohthenoises: That's effectively what we already have in the forum listings; you're meant to pick a forum from the available listings. Even the Q&A filter page is, unfortunately, still failing to catch all of the miscategorized posts.

@Behgz: Your answer isn't logical. For one, telling Epoch to stop belly aching is unreasonable. Just looking at all the posts he makes per day saying "moved to SUBFORUM" is tiring, and I can't imagine what it does for him and his notifications. And suggesting that he replace the General forum with another general forum is silly. Yes, this is a forum and we have come here to chat, but we specifically come here to chat about Magic, so I don't see it as unreasonable to expect that Magic players should be able to categorize their posts in a Magic forum.

I entirely agree with Snowstorm; adding more mods/admins could help the site and take the load off of you, Epochalyptik. I'm not saying this is the solution to the problem at hand, but I think it would really help in the long run.

Something keeps happening where your [UNH] tag doesn't work. Whatever you're doing with the code, please stop--I have to rewrite my deck lists every time this happens.

Weird, I meant to post that in another thread, I wonder why it showed up here.

What I mean is a list that doesn't include three of the most recent threads. Just a list.

The 3 threads clutter up the page and make it so things get pushed down further, this is what I see on the page.

If you removed the three threads from each you could cram them together a bit more so that people could see all of their options.

You could fit 9+ forums in that space, but instead I only see two and the first line of the third.

I'm sorry that I always forget to link my cards. I'm a bad person.

Honestly I think we need more higher ranking admins that can move forums around. As far as I'm aware, there's only a handful, and even then, Epochalyptik is the only person I ever see using these powers.

I think I have a few points that might help.

First, the tutorial - we already have a mandatory comment tutorial that shows you how to link cards. How many people comment without knowing how to link cards? Tons. How will a mandatory forum tutorial help?

Second, Q&A - it's hard to find. I didn't know about it for ages. I understand that for its functionality it has to be separate from the forums, but the forums are where people are going to look for it.

Thirdly, general - It's a big time commitment to learn all the forums by scrolling through that page. Make it smaller and cleaner, and maybe people will be willing to put the time into reading what sub-forum options exist before posting.

Can we make the system foolproof? God no. But making it take less time to find things will make people more likely to put in the effort to do so.

I hope that helped!

Although I feel I've provided some fairly decent idea's, I actually don't care all that much, as I don't post new topics very often, if at all.

I believe this site would benefit from a 'noise' or 'babble' Forum, however I could care less if it is actually implemented, as it won't effect me either way.

Looking forward to the third installment of this Topic being featured on the homepage.

''Moved to Noise.''

Can't wait to start seeing that XD

I recommend the following:

1. Create a quiz all users must answer 100% correctly before commenting (and make mandatory to even the current users). This will wipe out all spam accounts (besides human ones) and will educate the users.

2. Before the quiz, just have a very detailed thread (that is always a link in the T/O menu after articles) that teaches them everything.

3. Make it detailed, put a lot of work into it, and get it done. Increase your headache this week, and relax the following months. That seems logical to me.

4. Lastly, consider renaming the "General" Forum to "Other" Forum and kicking it to the bottom of the forums page? Let everyone VIEW and READ the other forums and seeing if their idea for a thread fits into one of them. Then, if they reach the bottom and it doesn't fit into any yet, they will know that their thread belongs in "Other." Does that sound good?

Could care less

@Dreno33: In an ideal system, having perfectly educated users would be possible and great. But a long list of material just to begin using the site doesn't improve usability in terms of practicality or convenience. And the problem with detailed walls of info (take this from an IT System Security writer) is that nobody will read anything they don't have to read. So either everything is mandatory and usability goes down, or only parts of it are mandatory and the required effort remains high. Unfortunately, neither is optimal, and I feel #1-3 would not, in practice, get us any closer to the goal.

The last suggestion has been implemented as of yesterday (it's 5am on the 31st here), and we'll see what effect it has.

ChiefBell Lulz, hold down the fort while I'm gone. Stepping out for some toner and a trip to the vet.

I'll go ahead and support Snowstorm's idea. It is obviously the easiest and most effective solution. There are plenty of users on here that frequent the forums and are more than capable of moving a misplaced thread to the correct forum. Epochalyptik has a life outside of T/O and can't be here 24/7. High level management and low level tasking is the way to go.

Increase the number of moderators. 1 mod per forum, each tasked with moving inccorectly placed threads out etc.

Personally, I think increasing the number of moderators is the best short/medium-term solution. UI redesign, beyond the really simple stuff, isn't going to be easy, especially as this site is built from scratch and isn't using the PHPBB format. Adding more manpower is the obvious solution, but I'd be interested in what downsides there are to it. The obvious one I can think of is more potential for someone to get mad and mess with the website or other users. Are there any other major problems with adding more help?

Putting the general forum at the bottom seems like a good idea to me. From what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), the issue with that is people will see a wall of forums and don't want to scroll down to the General forum and might make the next top forum a dumping ground.

A solution to this would be to change the way the forum page is formatted. You could just list the forums and leave out the 3 most recent threads that we have on that page. So instead of seeing the General forum, followed by 3 threads, then Deck Help and 3 threads, you'd just see General, Deck Help, Standard, etc. You can still go into the forum to find specific threads. It'll make it easier to find the forum you want.

I think that there should be a brief ToS for each section that must be read, followed by a Password located somewhere within the ToS near the end. Also, forum suspensions past a certain number of incorrect positioning.

@OutspokenFerret: While suspensions/infractions (i.e. the typical moderating tools) are certainly possible options, but I (and yeaGO!, I'm sure) would rather encourage and instruct proper usage than punish improper usage.

The posting tutorial is, in a way, a compromise between the two perspectives. It instructs and can also be used to push users back onto the path, but it doesn't really disrupt usage or privileges. Thoughts?

If you have to move three threads by a user they have to take a quiz about forum usage? Seems legit.

I really think that we just need more moderators.

@Epochalyptik The only problem I see with non-sanctioned moderation is the current abundance of "Trolls". While instead of Suspension, we could, after a certain number of improper posts, force the thread to be approved by a moderator. The only problem would be the time consumption if too many people post incorrectly, which can be avoided by allowing a user based system, voting on pending threads, possibly 5 votes for allow/disallow with a notes system that would allow voters to recommend an alternative forum. Again, time and activity become an issue, but I see that as one of the more secure ways of handling it.

The password ToS mentioned above by the way would be unchanging so regular posters would not have to go through tedious amounts of scanning and if they have forgotten the password it means they should read the terms again anyways.

A lot of the solutions that have been forward seem like they're targeting advanced users who maliciously post in the wrong location to cause issues for others. From my experience, it seems most of the problematic threads do not follow this pattern. Instead, they seem to be the result of new users having difficulty navigating a clearly complicated system.

A tutorial may appear to help in this situation, but in practice will be skimmed through and forgotten in order to save time. Many people feel they already know how to use a forum, and as such will not be willing to put in effort to learn the specifics of this forum.

Punishment again will not help, since new users will be driven away by what would seem to be a closed community.

Instead, the forums need to be streamlined.

As is, we have sections for each popular format, but the most common threads relating to a specific format are better suited for the amalgamation that is "deck help."

We have a useful Q&A section, but it is named ambiguously, and not located in the forums, where most people will look for it.

Finally, the forum page is difficult to navigate, leading people to be unwilling to put in the effort to find the correct forum.

What needs to happen is to move Q&A into the forums, remove the three threads from the forum page, and provide a nice UI to logically categorize the forums so that they are easier to find.

... I swear the sites new layout just hurts my eyes...

I still think that a lot could be done with the forums page by just removing the most recent three for each thread and pushing the separate sections together.

The layout is what kills it. Too little information on the screen at once, the need to scroll for a shockingly long amount of time compared to most fora. Having to scroll through multiple screens of text just to even -look- at the different forum sections is poor design.

Here's what I'd do with the layout:

1/ Create X larger headed sections: "Deck Help" (which could easily have its own Deck Help section for each format the site deals in as a subforum), "Format Discussion" (which, again, could have its own format-sections underneath) "Trading and Economy" (which would have the current 'trading' 'economics' and 'spoilers and rumours' sections in it) and "General" (The tappedout, lore, challenges/articles, and custom cards sections could go here)

2/ Turf the "three most recent threads" from the display. Even making 'deck help' show every format as a subforum under the larger heading, this will take up much less space on the forum frontpage, making it quicker and easier to see each heading and make sure threads go in the right place

3/ Give the Rules Q&A a main forum section as well, so people don't have to see the button up in the top bar and realise what it is for versus posting in the forum, which is what's done virtually everywhere else.

4/ Provide -some kind of- forum searchability for the Q&A even if it just searches out Q&A posts that link the same card searched for. I know a lot of people will ignore this and just blithely post, but it's also valuable for -answering- users as well, when you can search up the thread from three months ago where somebody went deep into the Opalescence and Humility interactions, so you don't have to recreate them from scratch.

Epochalyptik, Devonin

Here is a sample of another forum I frequent -

• Notice the subheadings which aid in organisation. 'Community', 'Music', 'Instruments' could be 'Community', 'Formats', 'Deck Help' (maybe).

• Notice how the most recent thread is shown to the side rather than below the forum heading, allowing more to fit onto a single page.

• Notice how each description is about a line long, very short and to-the-point.

I'd rather we had headings to categorize everything. vBulletin gives you a nice, compact view. The problem is that we don't use it. Back when we had only a few different forums, the layout was fine. Now, we have more than can comfortably fit on a single page (or even a page and a half).

@OutspokenFerret: I don't really understand what it is you're proposing in 5:4. Can you explain a little more?

"The problem is we don't use it. Our old system used to work but now it doesn't"

So uh....switch to one that does?

We're in the process of doing that. TappedOut is a secondary responsibility for yeaGO! and for myself. We fix things when we have time to fix them, and the coding and design stuff takes a while. We don't just snap our fingers and conjure massive changes instantaneously.

@Epochalyptik

Pretty much, When posting in a forum, there is, in the preview sections, a forum guildlines. Within those guidelines is a password. Before you can post, you must first put in the password. Then if you still post incorrectly you get a warning. After 5 or so warnings, further threads you post will have to be approved by either a moderator, or possibly other users (depending on how you would like to handle it). This avoids deterring new users with suspensions for posting wrong, but it also avoids the problem of continued, accidental or otherwise, improper forum posting.

To those of you who are still subscribed:

It appears that moving General toward the bottom of the forum listings did solve some issues. I see only a few General posts now, and they're almost all ones that belong in General. We'll have to watch a little longer, but this may be the way things are until we implement an update.

Seems legit. Let's see how it does in the long term.

1 Bant Control. 2-1

2 MUD 2-0

3 red aggro 2-0

Posted that in the wrong place lol. Now you all know how I'm doing in my IQ

The "3 thread preview" no longer appears on mobile