I have a problem with the way suggestions are given around here
TappedOut forum
Posted on Feb. 21, 2014, 9:32 p.m. by AndyReveler
I'm sorry if this sounds or comes off a certain way then intended, but I'm going to get straight to the point in saying I don't appreciate the way a lot of suggestions are given around here...and I know it doesn't help that sometimes people ask for just general deck help instead of specific help, but the way suggestions are handled in general...could be better.
My first problem is the word should. You should play this is instead of this, or you really should find room for this. Why? Why should any one have to do that. I don't have a problem with the word itself, its just the context i guess. A lot of times when I see people saying it like this I know they mean it as that's what they would play, but it doesn't come off like that. It just sounds bossy and pompous. Alternative ways to express this could be "I would play (card) over (card) because..." or "have you considered (card) because..." or even "It might be in your decks best interest to include (card) because...". You can easily get your point across without sounding arrogant.
My second problem is somewhat blind suggestions. A lot of times people suggest a card over another card strictly because its "better" than another and that's fine, but how relevant is the card with the overall goal or theme of the deck? I've seen so many examples of this that it becomes frustrating to read even if it's not being directed at me. An example would be like this; I run Selesnya aggro deck that's a bit slower than most because I decided to not run a lot of 1 drops and instead focus on 3 drops and it works fairly well for me this way. A common suggestion for mine and most other G/W decks is to put Voice of Resurgence into it. Now this isn't that irking to me as its a fact voice is a good card, my problem the suggestion is based on nothing other than "it's a good card". My deck typically has 2-3 creatures on the field at a time, not 3-5 weenies like a typical Selesnya would, so voice wouldn't be as relevant in my deck as a typical Selesnya deck and if I did included it I'd have to change my deck up a bit more to accommodate it with smaller creatures which is something I don't want to do as my deck works more or less exactly the way I want it to. This is a minor example, but I've seen other suggestions saying to take out most of the creatures to splashing another color that's simply not necessary for whats going on in the deck. I understand wanting to be helpful and give awesome suggestion, I'm just saying for people to look at the overall deck before making suggestions.
My last complaint is something simple, but something that sometimes doesn't happen for what ever reason. If you're gonna suggestion a card, a few cards, a splash of color or an overhaul of a deck, just make sure to give some comprehensive and relevant reasons as to why, instead of something like, "you should splash black for Abrupt Decay " or "Hero's Downfall over Abrupt Decay ". I'm not saying write a paragraph or two, but give a little detail as to why, yeah the choice might be obvious to you, but you shouldn't assume the other person knows exactly why just because they can read what the card does or once again, because it's just a "good card". State your argument.
I apologize if I sound ranty and I'm not saying the whole website does this or even half of the website does this, I'm only saying all of this because It's happened enough that it does bother me. I'm sure I myself am guilty of this and maybe everyone has done at least one of these at one point or another, I just want to bring it to attention as a way to help improve the site.
CardSlinger says... #3
Why QQ about the way people give suggestions, are you really that vain? You should just be happy they took the time to comprehend your deck, and give it. I love every suggestion people give, and if it's a short suggestion I just look the card up. In magic, if you read the card you don't need a paragraph why to, or not to accept it.
February 21, 2014 10:09 p.m.
SwiftDeath says... #4
I try to be respectful of others when posting on decks and forums. If someone is asking for help a lot of the time I will ask them for more information before giving a suggestion if they are not clear with their explanations. furthermore when I suggest a card I never say they Should add a card, I always refer to them as "They should think about Card Name/s. Add reasons why for each card." or I will say "you should consider Card Name/s" I will always add detailed reasons for why I suggest cards and will even help further the deck along. If it gets really technical I will even talk to people over skype to help them. I tend to stay away from commenting on casual decks and decks that have a bad curve or card base (lots of 1-2 of's). I know other people do this and it does bother me as well some of the time. I try to take into consideration that they are commenting on my deck as well and I am always thankful for any suggestions even if I feel they do not help what I am going for. I don't get many comments so I appreciate any and all that I get.
February 21, 2014 10:58 p.m.
AndyReveler says... #6
Yeah sorry ChiefBell I didn't mean it like it was a big deal, cause it's really not, just something that could be improved on a bit, i guess i made it seem like it bothered me a lot more than it did, but it did bug me enough to wanna bring it to peoples attention.
If you dont feel this applies to you, then so be it CardSlinger. If you feel I'm being excessively whiny and need to QQ then fine, I'll take that, but looking at a deck and suggesting a card just because its good isn't really "comprehending" the deck which was my 2nd point. It also just sounds like you're just antagonizing when you claim to love every single suggestion people give as there have been some pretty condescending suggestions out there.
February 21, 2014 11:15 p.m.
AndyReveler says... #7
When I first got on here i was pretty guilty of just posting decks and waiting for comments, but I've recently begun thanking people for just commenting and giving a little information about why i will or wont consider a card and if the other person really cares to they will argue their case a little more and we discuss things logically, or when I post things I try to give a little information on my card choices or why something should be taken out without trying to seem bossy, but considerate, more or less like you say SwiftDeath.
and yeah Rhinowarrior people do suck, myself included, part of this post was just to try to help us all suck a little less
February 21, 2014 11:25 p.m.
CardSlinger says... #8
You completely contradict yourself... Looking at a deck, and suggesting a card because it's good is comprehending the deck and making a good card suggestion. People suggest cards that win games, and recommending cards that win games should be suggested. Unless of course you don't like being rewarded, then sure... Use whatever cards you want. If you want to be rewarded, then use cards that win. Don't be such a bigot about HOW they respond, just be happy they do.
February 21, 2014 11:25 p.m.
OutspokenFerret says... #9
@CardSlinger Im sorry but reading a card doesn't always tell you its power or its relevance in a given deck. Take Delver of Secrets Flip for example. Pre-Theros Delver of Secrets was standard legal, and there was one deck for it that was not even tier 3. But if you look at Delver, on paper he is a beast, if you play Instants and Sorceries and Blue, you should play him. But that was not the case in the meta of Olivia Voldaren 's and Falkenrath Aristocrat s.
Second, I think you may have missed the point. The problem is that most of the time people don't take the time to comprehend the deck, they just see colors and spew names. Although I've grown used to those comments, they do get annoying at times and I can totally understand where the OP was coming from. Secondly, maybe you don't notice why card X is so good. Then it is helpful that the suggester explains the advantages of card X over card Y, especially for newer players. My last example:
BR Midrange:
" You should be playing Dreadbore . Take out Read the Bones , Underworld Connections is better."
Vs.
" You might want to consider Dreadbore here, It is really adept at dealing with Turn 2 Pack Rat and allows you to hit your opponents Walkers without sacrificing too much on a turn where you may just want to be dropping a threat to possibly force an answer from them. Additionally, Read the Bones may not fit in here as well as say Underworld Connections . Connections is going to keel the deck pumping out removal and dudes, whereas Read the Bones only does it's job once. Not to mention Connections add to your devotion count."
Bleh, I hoped this helped you understand the OP a bit better, it was not intended to cause any harm so please do not take it that way. I understand your side as well, and it really boils down to the builders preference. Maybe their could be an option in the checkboxes in the edit page (ie. where the "Prototype" option is) that would tell someone before they comment whether or not the builder preferred explanations with suggestions or not.
February 21, 2014 11:58 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #10
Instead of running Boros Guildgate you should run Sacred Foundry .
/argument
That's what most people recommend, better versions of cards than what you might have in a deck. Granted, if you say the deck is budget, I won't recommend cards over ten dollars. But if you don't have that hub, and the deck is listed in a format other than casual or EDH, I'm going to go all out and recommend cards that are inherently better than what you have, even if they are more spendy.
I should clarify that when I say "you", I'm talking about whoever's metaphorical deck Im making a card suggestion on.
February 22, 2014 12:23 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #11
I try to list why I would run a certain thing and give at least one scenario where it would be better off. I think a lot of the problem would be fixed if people actually put time in their descriptions though. How many times do you look at a deck that reads something like "X deck in Y format (HELP) just to have the description say "This is my X deck. It's meant to be Y archetype" and thats it. I can't help someone unless they at least help themselves ya know? Sorry for the rant (and yes I am actually one of the people I hate. The difference is if I want help on a deck, I at least give reasons why I choose the cards in the deck) Overall, OP I agree with you. This is a community, lets treat it like one.
February 22, 2014 12:43 a.m.
While I myself build to theme and for fun, I also build for competitive. If I'm building for a theme, I will tag it as Theme/Gimmick. This should tip a potential responder in that you are looking for suggestions that also fit the theme of the deck. If that's not enough, in my descriptions I will say please try to keep the suggestions thematically correct or something like that. It's not that hard to help those trying to help you out with what you are looking for.
However, there are those who do not read descriptions, just see a color combination, scan through the deck and just suggest cards that are Pro Tour staples. These people really could take their time to actually read the description and know what the builder is looking for.
The point of just suggesting and not explaining is irksome, but we all do it. It's something we just have to deal with, and try our best to keep from doing.
February 22, 2014 12:44 a.m.
AndyReveler says... #13
thank you for clarifying what i apparently failed to word correctly OutspokenFerret, thats more or less exactly what i meant, im trying not to mean any harm with my personal opinions either, just something i thought people could benefit from so i brought it up...
I do see that more often than not as well vampirelazarus, i meant more in cases like i mentioned about Voice of Resurgence for my deck, granted its an amazing card, but It would be nice to hear what it would bring to my deck, what it should replace and why. Tho cases like what you mentioned are pretty easy to understand and I would say occur more often than my complaints happen.
February 22, 2014 12:54 a.m.
AndyReveler says... #14
thanks VampireArmy, i like this community and just want to bring awareness to better it, thats all...
exactly Rocknj06 some people want to build a deck around Trollhide for some reason or another, suggesting cards to replace it don't really help or helping someone with an aura deck and telling them aura's just aren't viable as a really competitive deck help either, and once again, just wanna bring awareness to a bad habit most of us are guilty of
February 22, 2014 1 a.m.
I'm the same way. I mean it's not the end of the world, but it's a little pet peeve of mine when people just say "this card is better switch it". I prefer a little bit of an explanation when someone makes a suggestion for one of my decks. This way it gives me some insight into what their reasoning or logic might be for why they made that suggestion. Then I can use that information to help me decide if I agree with them and if I think the card actually deserves a place in the deck or maybe even teach me something that I hadn't realized before. I mean if it was really as obvious as you naming off a card and me instantly understanding why and knowing exactly what I can afford to remove for it then I wouldn't be asking for help and that card would already be in the deck. Another reason I prefer explanations with suggestions is because then I can actually respond to whomever made the suggestion my reasoning for why the card is in the deck that they are suggesting I remove. This can make a big difference, because sometimes having a better understanding of why the card is there in the first place means they can make a better suggestion. Or, it also means they can explain any flaws in the reasoning I have and I can learn something and better myself. I just think an explanation promotes further discussion which leads to better suggestions and better deck tuning.
Another thing that kinda peeves me is when people make suggestions that require a complete deck overhaul. One example of this would be how people always suggest Lotleth Troll for my B/G deck. I understand that it's a good card and actually wanted to include it when I first started working on the deck, but as it started rounding out into shape it became really obvious the card just didn't fit in the deck. I run things like Desecration Demon , Polukranos, World Eater , Reaper of the Wilds , and Arbor Colossus and I found in testing that I was rarely better off discarding those creatures to the troll than I was casting them. So people come up and see that it's a B/G deck and immediately go you should add in Lotleth Troll . When I see this suggestions, I typically know that person didn't actually pay any attention to what's in the deck or try to understand how the deck functions. It doesn't take much effort to see that I get more value from casting my creatures than I would discarding them or to see that I have no way of getting any extra value from those creatures once they're in the graveyard. I feel like if your suggestion would require several other cards to be added as well in order to make it most effective then your not really making suggestions for the deck your currently looking at, more like your making suggestions for a whole new or different deck, and suggestions like those aren't helpful in slightest. The times when I get suggestions like that I feel more like the person just wanted to make a post trying to improve there T/O rank rather than actually make a suggestion because they thought it was a good idea.
February 22, 2014 1:05 a.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #16
I honestly don't think you should be taking it so personally. If you ask for help on a deck, and I think that you should be running this card so that your deck can perform better, I'm going to suggest that I think you should run it.
People suck, and if they're giving you blind suggestions, just ignore the comment and move on.
Also, if your deck is lacking removal, I, personally, will suggest you splash for removal if you can't run it otherwise. And if your deck doesn't need it and you know it, ignore my comment and move on. *
- I use myself as an example not because I feel I am the reason, but because I don't want to speak for the general public. Just saying.
February 22, 2014 2:02 a.m.
People you are all forgetting that they are suggestions. If you don't like the way people suggest things, then I suggest you move the hell on. Got nothing better to discuss than complaining about how people suggest ideas or combos. Its not as if these "bad suggestor" are harassing others to do as they demand or they are going to burn down an orphanage. I'm with the dude that said QQ more. I SUGGEST YOU SHOULD TAKE SUGGESTIONS WITH A GRAIN OF SALT.
ChiefBell says... #2
I think that people are inherently lazy so they use the word 'should' as shorthand for 'it is logical to' or 'I would do this'. Furthermore that's why you get bad suggestions like Voice of Resurgence . I'm particularly guilty of this. If I see a decklist that follows a basic archetype I may recommend cards that USUALLY go with the theme, but in the specific confines of that deck may be bad. It's like when you get so used to seeing something you just automatically recommend it. It's bad practice for sure. Laziness also factors into your last point. People don't want to do a whole lot of thinking. They recommend something but don't feel like typing an essay. It's a shame because I agree - sometimes it is very helpful.
The other thing to remember is that a lot of people who post in places like this are Spike players (play only to win etc). These kinds of players follow the metagame closely and sometimes expect everyone else to as well. Occasionally people don't explain their suggestions and use words like 'should' because they expect the other person to know why they're suggesting it already and why it's a good idea.
Obviously people are people and they do all manner of rude, short-sighted, lazy, things. It's not a massive deal. Everyone has good intentions, it's just the internet.
February 21, 2014 9:39 p.m.