New hubs to be added
TappedOut forum
Posted on Nov. 12, 2020, 12:28 a.m. by legendofa
Hi all, I'm one of the people who adds hubs, I'm back from an unexpectedly long break, and I'm working on adding some new stuff. Suggestions I'm looking at are Uro, Mutate, Miracles, Doomsday, Adventures, Devoted Druid, and Blink. Please let me know of any other suggestions, or discussions on the ones I listed, and I'll get to work.
Also, what did I miss with the DragonShield superhero stuff?
legendofa, I’m not specifically in need of adding any hubs—-I find that T/O is plenty inclusive of them as far as my usage goes. I’m just trying to help where I see a deficit. That said, I can be a dingbat and miss things. Thanks for asking!
March 29, 2021 9:53 a.m.
I don't think Self-Mill is the same as dredge. And they don't play the same. Or use the same cards.
April 7, 2021 9:16 p.m.
There have been a couple of requests for self-mill recently, so I'll add it to the short list.
Current short list: self-mill, coin flip, attrition, monarch
Current slightly longer list: All Spells (with or without the Oops), Lantern Control
April 8, 2021 12:01 a.m.
ohgeezgames says... #7
Has anyone suggested Lifedrain? I wouldn't mind that Hub.
April 8, 2021 1:25 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #8
ohgeezgames: I've never heard of a deck called "lifedrain" don't know what cards it would have and there sure are no mechanics or keywords tied with that.
April 8, 2021 1:29 a.m.
ohgeezgames says... #9
Femme_Fatale, can't edit my comment, but I meant life drain. I would think that would involve when you gain life target opponent loses life.
April 8, 2021 1:33 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #10
ohgeezgames: There are currently no cards that care about you doing that, so just use lifegain.
April 8, 2021 1:38 a.m.
Emyron5, Well dredge is a subset of self-mill, not he other way around! So it would make much more sense to replace dredge with self-mill, if anything.
April 8, 2021 11:39 a.m.
Dredge is a recursion mechanic that keeps returning dredge cards from the graveyard to hand and playing them over and over again. The milling is a cost of using the mechanic.
Self mill decks don't use dredge or even use recursion at all in their decks. Self-mill is an alt-win condition using stuff like Jace, Wielder of Mysteries to win by emptying your library.
April 8, 2021 12:09 p.m.
MagicMarc I didn't really consider Laboratory Maniac decks, so that is a good point, Dredge can certainly stray from a lot of self mill decks come to think of it.
April 8, 2021 1:36 p.m.
MagicMarc, I would say self-milling means to mill yourself, be it for reanimating, the alternative win-condition you mentioned, dredge, to play falshback/jump-start/etc. cards, and more. Is this a wrong understanding then? It doesn't seem like your definition is the one used, to give an example: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/limited-information/milling-yourself-fun-and-profit-2011-12-13
April 8, 2021 3:16 p.m.
The article you linked does not even have a single dredge card in the entire article. This leads me to think we are not in agreement on what dredge and dredge decks are in MtG.
Dredge is a keyworded ability printed on specific cards. A deck archetype was developed using these dredge cards in different ways to win games during the original Ravnica block.
Here is a MTG wiki about the deck archetype built around dredge: Dredge.
Your idea of dredge may be different from mine so I wanted to clarify where I was coming from regarding dredge and dredge decks.
April 8, 2021 4:34 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #16
Dredge is a deck that uses the graveyard to win via combat damage or cards that work when they enter the graveyard. Sel-mill is a deck that wins by having zero cards in your library.
It is important to remember that dredge decks don't actually need to use dredge cards, especially modern dredge decks. All they need to do is put a lot of cards in your graveyard and utilize the graveyard a lot.
The biggest differences here are that dredge decks don't care about how many cards are in the library until they deck themselves, self-mill decks absolutely care about how many cards are in their deck. Dredge decks win by lowering the opponents life to zero, self-mill decks win through the alternate win conditions provided by specific cards.
April 9, 2021 1:16 a.m.
There is some really confusing ambiguity in the language of MTG.
MagicMarc: I wasn't trying to make a point about dredge, I was trying to make a point about self-mill. I was trying to say that self-mill is when you put our own cards directly from your library into your graveyard for whatever reason. Dredge (the keyword) is a peculiar case, since it is both a way to mill yourself and it is a reason to mill yourself. But I understand self-mill to be a proper superset of things like dredge, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries , Stitcher's Supplier , etc.
Femme_Fatale: So basically what you call dredge (archetype) is almost what I understood self-mill to be. It seems really weird that dredge should be the proper word for it, though. It doesn't matter, it seems I am wrong. Dunning kruger strikes again.
April 9, 2021 8:46 a.m.
FiveMagicsMaster I have self-mill on the short list. Did you have something else in mind for Laboratory Maniac ?
April 13, 2021 1:09 a.m.
FiveMagicsMaster says... #20
I'm usually trying to win w/ a large draw/wheel effect like Tolarian Winds and Flux and not so much the mill, just thought he is unique enough to be mentioned as a hub win-condition. Glad it's on the list!
April 13, 2021 1:29 a.m.
FiveMagicsMaster says... #21
also an unrelated hub, is there something for static, indirect damage; Pandemonium , Impact Tremors , Warstorm Surge , Mage Slayer , Burning Anger ect.? I call it 'firework' damage and build a lot of decks around this but didn't know if it's already hubbed/nicknamed
April 13, 2021 1:34 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #22
FiveMagicsMaster: There are no cards that care about that type of damage, so it's really just gonna be labelled as burn as that's pretty much what you are doing.
April 13, 2021 1:50 a.m.
morbidmovies says... #23
As one of the most consistent & viable budget decks for Modern, i'd like to see 8-Whack get a hub.
May 3, 2021 1:43 p.m.
DoIStillLoveIt says... #24
Hubs seem so random and arbitrary. Is there any documentation on what steps are taken to even create one?
May 3, 2021 4:44 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #25
DoIStillLoveIt: They are random and arbitrary because people are random and arbitrary :p
Beyond "does it see competitive play" and "must not be a standard deck" there isn't any documentation. Because everyone just wants their fringe pet kitchen table archetype have its own hub. Some of these have just enough cards to actually generate enough interest into them and many do not.
May 3, 2021 8:52 p.m.
That said maybe we should try to come up with guidelines for an ideal submission... likely in some meta thread.
May 3, 2021 9:10 p.m.
Mtg_Mega_Nerds says... #27
Honestly I think plane old graveyard should be a hub.
May 3, 2021 9:19 p.m.
@FiveMagicsMaster; A decade or so ago there were competitive decks that got nicknamed "Pebbles". Fruity Pebbles, Cocoa Pebbles, etc.
They used the following combination of cards or similar to beat people's life totals down with infinite "pings" of damage: Shield Sphere + Goblin Bombardment + Enduring Renewal . Any 0 cost creature would work. You sac the creature to trigger the damage, the renewal got it back to your hand, play the creature for free since 0 cost then keep doing it until they died. The difference in the deck names usually meant what cards were used to assemble the combo. Like Cocoa Pebbles used Necropotence to get to the combo pieces.
So naming combo decks, especially decks taking advantage of 0 cost creatures or 0 cost artifacts to win games started getting named after cereals. "Cheerios" decks use 0 cost artifacts to keep burning through their library and burning their opponent.
At EDHREC you can find Impact Tremors & Goblin Bombardment under the Cheerios theme.
Pandemonium & Warstorm Surge are different from those being a non-sacrifice type of Fling . Like Femme_Fatale said, those don't have a theme. Just burn. A card like Burning Anger that taps to do damage might be considered a "Pinger" theme card like Prodigal Sorcerer but because its not 1 point at a time it may not be.
May 3, 2021 9:44 p.m.
I suppose I should list what I look for in a hub.
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How much variety would the hub contain? Are all the decklist virtually the same, give or take a couple of flex spots? Could two decks that don't share any cards be in the same hub?
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Which formats does it appear in? If it's Standard-only, it won't be hubbed. More formats = better chance of becoming a hub.
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How popular is it? If it's your pet deck that nobody else uses, it won't be hubbed. There's no hard minimum, but it must be recognizable.
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How easy is it to give a descriptive name? Does the name clearly, accurately, and simply describe the deck?
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Does it feel like a hub? This is totally subjective, and I try not to let it influence too much, but sometimes a suggested hub just doesn't feel right.
I try not to reject hub suggestions out of hand, but I will ask questions about suggestions I don't fully understand, especially since a lot of these criteria are fuzzy around the edges.
Of course, I welcome feedback on these standards, in another thread if it works out that way.
May 4, 2021 12:50 a.m.
Cardholderdoe says... #31
Boy, I lucked out by having some guidelines posted above. Haven't really posted on anything yet here yet, but I was curious if adding a "Theft" hub would be worthwhile. I don't see it all the time, but it is out and about, particularly in the Casual EDH range. Naming this can be pretty vague - I've seen the terms "Mirror Match", "steal-your-Stuff", and a hand full of others come around. Mirror Match may be the most applicable because of the vast number of ways you can play with cards you don't own - red "borrow", clone, actual theft effects like blatant thievery, graverobbing...
I don't know that it's super popular but I also think it's been rising for some time. This is my "steal your stuff" deck-
The Joker and the Thief (Jeleva)
And there are several similar decklists out there. One of the fan episodes from game knights showcased a similar deck -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG4h_C9eUHg
Would this be something worth adding?
May 6, 2021 12:15 a.m.
Cardholderdoe To me, Mirror Match is two decks built with the same colors, strategy, and card selection, not one deck being parasitic off the other. Theft could work.
May 6, 2021 1:01 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #33
Cardholderdoe: "theft" is what the mtg community knows as Aikido. Properly translated it means "tactical appropriation".
May 6, 2021 3:56 p.m.
The hubs Attrition, Coin Flip, and Monarch have been added. Self-Mill is currently considered to fall under mill, so if you think it should be its own hub, please let me know.
The hubs Xerox and Vehicle are under review for removal. Xerox has received seven decks in six months, so it doesn't appear to be recognizable as a strategy or archetype. Vehicle is currently completely redundant with the Crew keyword ability.
I'll be reviewing all the hubs for usage and comprehension rates in the near future, to see if any are underused or regularly misinterpreted.
May 16, 2021 7:38 p.m.
Mtg_Mega_Nerds says... #35
I am not sure if this is already a hub, but can you add graveyard?
May 16, 2021 8:57 p.m.
Mtg_Mega_Nerds what do you mean by "Graveyard?" There could be very many hubs that relate to what you're thinking of. Reanimator comes to mind.
May 16, 2021 9:59 p.m.
Mtg_Mega_Nerds Graveyard is an overly broad term. Could you please narrow it down, if you have something specific in mind?
May 16, 2021 10:58 p.m.
TheVectornaut says... #38
legendofa, do you have the Coin Flip hub set to pull from the Flip keyword hub? Looking at the deck search, it looks like I'm the only one so far to make the switch from one to the other. The remaining decks across all 5 pages are using the keyword only. I'd really like to go through and put in fixes for the coin flip cards so they don't have a keyword improperly attached to them. But, I also don't want to inadvertently remove 99% of the decks that belong in a hub from said hub. I don't know enough about the hub system to know if that would actually happen anyway. Is it safe for me to go ahead and start making fixes?
May 17, 2021 2:30 a.m.
Mtg_Mega_Nerds says... #39
I guess reanimator is probably what I am thinking of. Thanks.
May 17, 2021 6:38 a.m.
TheVectornaut I don't have the authority to change a hub selected for a deck, short of removing the hub entirely. And Flip is a keyworded ability that happens to share its name with a much more popular mechanic. This was one of the things slowing down the creation of the Coin Flip hub. Let's call this a trial run and see how it works out. Other options are renaming the Coin Flip hub or rearranging how hubs are listed.
May 17, 2021 1:20 p.m.
The Adventures hub is redundant with the Adventure keyword selection, so it's up for removal.
mikefavata I somehow missed your suggestion, sorry about that. I'll shortlist 8-Whack, but I want to see how much variation there is in Modern aggro Goblins decks.
May 18, 2021 12:10 a.m.
Looks like a couple of new Goblin decks have popped up in the last couple of years. I can't wait to get back to playing in person...
Anyway, that helps 8-Whack's case as a unique and recognizable strategy. I'm being more exacting with new hubs than I was before, but I think you'll be seeing it before long.
May 18, 2021 12:24 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #45
legendofa: Coin Flip hub is gonna become real popular real quick.
May 21, 2021 1:07 a.m.
Femme_Fatale So far it's pretty much what I expected: A lot of Zndrsplt, Eye of Wisdom + Okaun, Eye of Chaos , a few Rakdos, the Showstopper , and some miscellaneous other EDH decks that contain a significant number of coin flip cards.
My current concern here is the conflation of Flip, the Kamigawa mechanic, with Coin Flip.
May 21, 2021 9:25 p.m.
Hello!
Maybe there is already a hub for this but I think an 'old-border' based tag would be really interesting. After I built my own, I really wanted to find other decks that used this kind of restriction. I ended up collecting the ones I found here, if anyone is interested.
This is obviously a very casual type of deck restriction and I totally understand not making it a hub, especially if no one else is looking for it; I just figured I would ask what you all thought :)
May 22, 2021 4:55 p.m.
Peoyogon There aren't any hubs built around the physical appearance of the card, and that could get difficult to arbitrate since a lot of newer cards are getting the pre-Modern border. Compare Abrupt Decay and Abrupt Decay . This one is going to have to stay under Theme/Gimmick for now. Maybe if Old-School or Pre-Modern or something becomes an established format, this could get revisited.
May 22, 2021 7:03 p.m.
Hello everybody! I think the new mechanic from Strixhaven called "magecraft" could be added as a hub. It exists in various colors too. What do you think? Thanks for your attention.
May 22, 2021 7:07 p.m.
As a keyword ability, Magecraft has been added to the ability/tribal checkbox list.
legendofa says... #1
0rc There's a hub called Turns. Would it be worthwhile to rename it to Extra Turns?
And yeah, Evasive is far too broad for a hub.
During my end step, I sacrifice five Thopters to Time Sieve and do it all over again. There's a hub called Turns...
March 29, 2021 9:44 a.m.